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Old 12-20-2014, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,254 posts, read 17,451,661 times
Reputation: 5375

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
You're confusing different issues. One is safety while riding. Another is crime (property or personal) if you are near a stop. A third is being part of a transit system connecting you to the inner city (i.e. if Cobb joined MARTA).
Marta has stations and bus stops in some of the most expensive areas ITP. Decatur, Inman Park, Buckhead, Brookhaven, Virginia Highlands, Cascade.
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:07 AM
bu2
 
9,903 posts, read 6,375,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
1. The system is very safe while riding as are the stations. The statistics on this subject are likely more indicative of the effects that transit has on crime than the other points. Marta is safe as is and is seeing a continued reduction in crime rates.

2. Crime near a stop can't necessarily be blamed on transit. Poorer areas tend to be more likely to have transit, since they needed it more when it was implemented. Transit did not make them poor. Poorer areas in Atlanta also tend to have more weave shops. Correlation does not equal causality.

Areas in Atlanta that have Marta rail were going downhill before Marta. Crack cocaine is more relevant than Marta. White flight and suburbanization deserves the blame more than Marta, which is sort of ironic considering suburbanites seem to be the ones blaming Marta. There's more to it than transit.

3. We have no way of knowing that the rise in crime which happened to correlate with Marta implementation fourty years ago will occur again. Fourty years ago the areas where Marta was implemented tended to be going downhill and were largely being abandoned by more financially stable people. Today we are likely to see a rise in property values and an increase in investment when rail expands.

Sweet Auburn, West End and the Old Fourth Ward have already seen investment in correlation with the prospect of transit that isn't even open. Crime rates have gone down and will likely continue to go down in those areas. If Vine City were to get a streetcar I'm almost certain crime would drop. In 2014 it would be much easier to argue that new transit will lead to a decrease in crime.
Most of those areas have seen investment because they are well located, not because of some unfunded transit plans. And they have been helped by the fact that transportation improvements aren't funded, since they are an easy ride or drive to downtown.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:09 AM
 
1,648 posts, read 1,733,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Most of those areas have seen investment because they are well located, not because of some unfunded transit plans. And they have been helped by the fact that transportation improvements aren't funded, since they are an easy ride or drive to downtown.
They have been helped immensely the fact that transit is built or promised. Ask anyone investing in those areas. My other points stand with no rebuttal.

The Beltline might not have the funds yet for light rail, but they have a funding mechanism. It's only a matter of time. I doubt there is a single recent home buyer in West End or Adair Park that wouldn't mention the Beltline as primary reason for ;listing there.

Same goes for Old Fourth Ward and the other neighborhoods on the south side of the Eastside Trail. There isn't a single business or development that didn't list the Beltline as a primary attraction. Rail is a huge part of the Beltline and it has a funding mechanism.

Again, same goes for Sweet Auburn. There are several buildings being restored, businesses opening and at least one mixed use development happening mainly because of the streetcar.

Last edited by joey86; 12-20-2014 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 12-20-2014, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,254 posts, read 17,451,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Most of those areas have seen investment because they are well located, not because of some unfunded transit plans. And they have been helped by the fact that transportation improvements aren't funded, since they are an easy ride or drive to downtown.
Research has shown that businesses and private dollars are more likely to invest along rail-based transit lines than bus routes.
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Old 12-21-2014, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,207,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkeating View Post
Point me to where I suggested that.
Innuendo from your last post?
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Old 12-21-2014, 09:42 AM
bu2
 
9,903 posts, read 6,375,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Research has shown that businesses and private dollars are more likely to invest along rail-based transit lines than bus routes.
That's merely the chicken or the egg question. Did development occur because of the rail or was development occurring and so they put rail there? And obviously, they don't put rail lines along less dense, slower developing areas.

Those studies, even in Portland, have all been debunked on that basis. All they show is correlation, not causation (kind of the same argument some of you are using on the other side). And they don't demonstrate that the development wouldn't have occurred elsewhere without the rail line. MARTA is ample demonstration that rail doesn't create development. Most of the south and east/west lines have had very little development for decades. They've been declining. Development has moved north.
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Old 12-21-2014, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Morningside, Atlanta, GA
280 posts, read 305,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
That's merely the chicken or the egg question. Did development occur because of the rail or was development occurring and so they put rail there? And obviously, they don't put rail lines along less dense, slower developing areas.

Those studies, even in Portland, have all been debunked on that basis. All they show is correlation, not causation (kind of the same argument some of you are using on the other side). And they don't demonstrate that the development wouldn't have occurred elsewhere without the rail line. MARTA is ample demonstration that rail doesn't create development. Most of the south and east/west lines have had very little development for decades. They've been declining. Development has moved north.
This "Know Nothing" argument is similar to that being used against climate change: unless you can prove a theory beyond any uncertainty (which is not possible in most sciences, much less economics) then it has been "debunked." There is very good data that transit (as well as roads and other infrastructure spending) drives development as measured by standard methods from the US National Academy of Sciences: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_w56.pdf.

Many people look at the MARTA system and draw the exact opposite conclusion with improved development everywhere except in the absolutely poorest areas. Multinational corporations choose to have their headquarters near transit. Why?
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Old 12-21-2014, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,176 posts, read 3,450,736 times
Reputation: 4380
^Interesting that State Farm insisted on direct platform access for their new Dunwoody tower, isn't it?
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Old 12-21-2014, 11:13 AM
 
Location: North Atlanta
5,410 posts, read 3,809,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
^Interesting that State Farm insisted on direct platform access for their new Dunwoody tower, isn't it?
That is interesting. Can't wait to see how that turns out.
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Old 12-21-2014, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Marietta, Georgia
178 posts, read 536,611 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yeah, Cobb does not need MARTA to bring it crime. It is already there.

I have never seen crime in my in town neighborhood. But one of my good friends works at Cumberland Mall and a few weeks ago should had to hide all the customers in the back of the store while police took down a criminal hiding in the store after a shootout and high speed chase. Scary stuff.
For those that don't live in Cobb or near Cumberland. We already have a public transportation system. It's not a rail, but it's part of the same sort of thing that MARTA has too. We have a public bus transportation system. The Cobb Community Transit (CCT) lets off right behind Cumberland Mall. It also connects to downtown and stops like the Marta Arts Center. It has many stops around Cobb County and all the main roads and even back roads. There have been plenty of break-ins around that area in the mall parking, shopping centers, and surrounding office parking lots. There was also a burglary at the Schlotskys and Jersey Mike's not too long ago. Of course, that can happen anywhere.

I don't believe public transportation buses in crime, but I do believe it brings lower income people and those that don't have the option to drive. Riding CCT is not very convenient and it's often unreliable, so I can't see why anyone would ride CCT unless they have to.

I used it for 6 months after my car broke down, shortly after moving to Marietta and getting an internship. Fortunately, I looked for an area close to a CCT stop before moving in. I've never witnessed a theft riding CCT or "crime", but I have witnessed physical fights at bus stops, physical and verbal fights on the bus, obnoxious people arguing on their cell phones loudly early in the morning, people blasting music through their headphones, people just shouting on their cell phones, and someone usually coughing around me without covering their mouth. Coincidence or not, I got sick more often. Could be related to the germs shared on the bus in a compact area or maybe waiting outside in the cold and sometimes rain for the bus to arrive. Who knows? This, on top of the inconvenience and unreliable schedules where CCT got reprimanded for being early, but not for arriving late influenced my decision to save money and fix my car and opt out of riding CCT even though after moving closer, there was a stop right outside my apartment that went straight to my office. You can argue this sort of thing happens everywhere, but I look at it from a standpoint of that being one more door I can close and not increase the chance of being around it. Experiencing something more often definitely raises your chance of it affecting you.

I'd assume someone who can be violent will eventually cause some sort of crime or be associated with it. This is the population I've witnessed a bus will carry. I'm sure a car can carry this too, but it's not something I've witnessed as much. This can't blanket the entire group, but they are still part of that group. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch. With there not being many pros to riding this public transportation I don't see why anyone would want to utilize it. If these people's only means of transportation is this public transportation and it didn't exist, then we wouldn't necessarily have those people arriving the same way they do. They may not even arrive at all and find other places to prosper. With all the cons presented in riding the bus, then it would make sense if many other people were in my position as well and were low income or didn't have a car.

For those saying that's like only 500 cases of crime for the MARTA example out of 200,000... That's 500 crimes we wouldn't have the same way if the opportunity to transport that crime didn't exist. General public transportation doesn't bring in crime or undesirable environments, but it sure as hell creates one more vehicle that makes that opportunity possible. That's why I don't care for most public transportation systems here. I've experienced all of the same experiences taking Marta when I worked in Buckhead with the added on stalker and creepy old guys, one example where I kept encountering the guy and he was asking way too many personal questions about myself.

I also used Xpress when I lived south of the Airport. I would probably utilize that again if I ever had the commute I had before. I dislike traffic just like anyone else and would like to avoid it. Xpress was a greyhound like bus that provided a straight shot from Henry County to Midtown Atlanta. You would park your car and then ride to the destination that bus goes. It was a little more pricey, but not that much. I didn't experience any of the above that I did on CCT. The demographics that rode the bus appeared to all be working professionals. I'd support a system like that coming here.
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