Should more lanes be added to the downtown connector (Atlanta: real estate market, rent)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by jsvh

There are American cities too. But I challenge your implication that somehow cities and people function different outside the US. The only reason US has so many more freeways is because we subsidized them much more than elsewhere.

Europeans accept less living space and have vastly denser cities. The general American mentality is different.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by bu2

Europeans accept less living space and have vastly denser cities. The general American mentality is different.

I would argue that both are results of our highway policy. Not a reason we need highway subsidies.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by atler8

I feel like we are dealing w/ an automatonic troll situation here, as in a continual proliferation of vague statements made right and left w/ out any real factual evidence or backup provided.
Just the facts please.. If you can't or choose not to provide them, then just maybe a comment/reply isn't necessary.

To the points, other cities typically do not have 3 separate interstate routes meeting up in their central core to deal with.
Just 2 quick examples-Dallas-I-35W, I-30, I-45. Houston-I-10, I-45, I-69.

Also, what is so difficult to comprehend about the fact that the federal government designed & planned the interstate highway route system. Atlanta did not do it. Get it? Initially it was a top down system pushed by Ike, hence the name "The Eisenhower Interstate System."
As currently practiced, the routes are decided locally in extensive environmental impact statements. I'm willing to be corrected from someone who actually understands how it worked 55 years ago, but I find it hard to believe the local government didn't designate the specific routes in the 50s. The interstate system was a general plan with specific design done locally. I know that has been the process since at least the 70s.
Would it be better for there to be 3 major gashes cutting through the core of Atlanta than just the present 2?
IMO, yes.
As for it being only European cities that lack freeways in their central cores, San Francisco & Washington, D.C. both have removed sections of completed freeway, as did New York City in the 1990's. And Boston famously relocated one of their central routes underground in a tunnel.
Also, as for whether new freeway construction or expansion should occur on vacant or densely packed land, I don't care a pitooey how it's done in other cities. That's irrelevant.

Its relevant when someone claims it is impossible.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Newsboy

I'm wondering the very same thing. The OP asked if the Connector could be widened by "4 lanes on each side" ... that's 8 lanes total. It doesn't take a degree in civil engineering to recognize that this is impossible, given the current width and design of the freeway. From I-20 north to the Brookwood split, the Connector is basically a sunken canyon lined with concrete walls and dense development. Just consider the area around North Avenue -- where Georgia Tech dorms look down onto the freeway on one side, and the Varsity literally hugs the rim of it on the other. It's like that the entire length. There simply is no room to expand it any further.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Th...fa0e6431e3fdb8

I mis-read him. I thought he was saying 4 lanes total (it didn't occur to me that anyone would suggest 8!). 8 is a lot more difficult than 4. 4 you could add even in many tight spaces by building under roads that parallel the freeway, much like Dallas added rail along the tight Central Expressway corridor.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Newsboy

I'm wondering the very same thing. The OP asked if the Connector could be widened by "4 lanes on each side" ... that's 8 lanes total. It doesn't take a degree in civil engineering to recognize that this is impossible, given the current width and design of the freeway. From I-20 north to the Brookwood split, the Connector is basically a sunken canyon lined with concrete walls and dense development. Just consider the area around North Avenue -- where Georgia Tech dorms look down onto the freeway on one side, and the Varsity literally hugs the rim of it on the other. It's like that the entire length. There simply is no room to expand it any further.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Th...fa0e6431e3fdb8

Houston was more dense than Atlanta 30 years ago and had a vast 25 year road plan. Most involved improving arterial roads. They were willing to condemn property to build left turn lanes and widen roads. They used multiple roads to create a single arterial. Just to give one example, in what were once a number of separate roads (many of which are still separate), you can drive about 25 miles from north Houston to Southwest Houston along the Hillcroft corridor. You start on Bammel-North Houston. Champions Forest merges with it. You drive straight onto North Houston Rosslyn (Champions Forest veers off). Then you drive onto Bingle (North Houston Rosslyn veers off). Bingle becomes Voss (Voss northbound deadends at the Katy Freeway). Voss becomes Hillcroft. Hillcroft becomes Blue Ridge Road. In many cases like North Houston-Rosslyn and Voss it didn't work well to extend those roads because of limited right of way so they connected to alternate routes.

Many freeways are built with condemning land. Austin's highway 71 and 183 built in the 80s/90s involved tearing down a lot of properties along arterial roads to convert to freeway. Houston expanded I-10 and its access roads a few years ago to about 24 lanes from about 12 using both rail right of way and condemning properties along the freeway. They are working on a massive expansion of the Northwest Freeway taking parking lots, buildings and putting up arial sections. Atlanta went underground for a piece of 400 near Lennox. There are lots of ways to do things. Its been so long since they've done major projects here, people don't seem to remember.

[westau]

I generally am in favor of more lanes on the interstates, but the downtown connector is the last place it makes sense. I do like the express vs. local lane idea though, a lot of the traffic is caused by people changing lanes all over the place for no reason.

[skbl17]

For the record, I do like the concept of dividing the existing lanes into a local/express configuration.

Should new lanes be added to the Connector? Absolutely not. You know we have a serious traffic problem when people start talking about adding more lanes to a maxed-out stretch of freeway.

Maybe, instead of widening a maxed-out stretch of freeway, we should encourage commuters to use alternatives. Carpool! Use MARTA!

- skbl17

[bryantm3]

i'm not going to waste my time reading all of the extremely verbose comments in this thread.

i think it would suffice to say that even if widening the downtown connector were possible, it would be an incredibly unpopular proposition, and in the long term would have no effect on traffic (see "induced demand"), and an extremely negative effect on atlanta's usable land area (are you seriously considering paying perhaps billions of dollars to take more land out of midtown and downtown for traffic lanes?).

i'm not saying that there isn't room for any more interstates in atlanta, but if you're talking about ITP, they most certainly will have to be tunnelled. there is perhaps some room OTP for interstates, specifically another east-west interstate from kennesaw to the duluth area, but at this point we really need to start investing on serious public transportation (heavy rail and subways) across the metro, as it's clear at this point that you cannot build more and more freeways and expect traffic to function in any kind of normal manner— there simply needs to be an alternative for commuters and travellers.

[magnetar]

Originally Posted by westau

I generally am in favor of more lanes on the interstates, but the downtown connector is the last place it makes sense. I do like the express vs. local lane idea though, a lot of the traffic is caused by people changing lanes all over the place for no reason.

I 100% agree that the traffic problems on the Connector are related to drivers weaving between lanes, but it's not for no reason, it's because of the Connector's design. The rightmost lanes that drivers merge into constantly end abruptly when they become exit only, causing panicked drivers to switch lanes at the last second and cause backups in lanes. I'd love to see GDOT devise a system whereby travelers driving through midtown/downtown could be separated from those trying to access the exits.

[ElleKaye]

Originally Posted by magnetar

I 100% agree that the traffic problems on the Connector are related to drivers weaving between lanes, but it's not for no reason, it's because of the Connector's design. The rightmost lanes that drivers merge into constantly end abruptly when they become exit only, causing panicked drivers to switch lanes at the last second and cause backups in lanes. I'd love to see GDOT devise a system whereby travelers driving through midtown/downtown could be separated from those trying to access the exits.

I agree with what you have said. I don't know whose idea it was, but one of the first things I noticed about Atlanta, not just the connector, but surface roads as well, is there is great risk of being forced to turn right if you are in the right lane. I have not experienced that anywhere else. The right lane has been the safety net for keeping straight or driving slower if you are not familiar with the area. I actually still find it flat out annoying.

I think additional signage earlier on would help cut down on confusion so the surprise isn't flung on you at the last minute. I honestly cannot think of an area in the city where some portion of the signage is not misleading. I mean blatantly misleading like putting two arrows where there is only one exit lane or no indication at all that if I go through a said light that I will be forced onto the freeway.