I-285/GA 400 Redo: Outdated Before The First Orange Barrel? (Atlanta: tax, safety)

[jsvh]

Any data around this new interchange actually being safer? Or is this just a gut feeling thing?

Because with roads, less is often more when it comes to safety. For example, roads without speed limits are safer, and roads shared with mixes of uses (bikes, walkers, etc) and without markings or signage is safer.

"Safety" has been used as an excuse for roadway projects for years, but it is almost always just a cover for roadway expansion at tax payers cost and without any actual measured safety benefit resulting from the project.

[joey86]

I don't have data, but it's not a gut feeling. I make up my mind from experience. Drive the interchange. Go east on 285 to 400 north or west on 285 to 400 south. Driving through either direction on 400 is made obviously dangerous by the way these exits were designed.

Also, I hope you aren't suggesting removing the signs or adding bicycles to this interchange.

[Born 2 Roll]

This is a key passage from the article in the link at the beginning of this thread:

Diridon says the only real fix is a New York or San Francisco-like mass transit system that incorporates multiple modes of transportation ─ everything from bike lanes to commuter rail.

Though there definitely and obviously is a legitimate need to make the outmoded I-285/GA 400 junction safer (by eliminating the dangerous (if not often deadly) merges into the high-speed far-left lanes of GA 400 NB and SB, separating merging traffic from exiting traffic along GA 400 and I-285, etc) I also agree with other posters and transportation experts that the I-285/GA 400 junction and the surrounding Perimeter Center area (as well as the I-285 Top End Perimeter and GA 400 North corridors) is going to need more than just this freeway interchange project alone to help the area stay passable over the long-term.

To remain passable over the long-term, the I-285/GA 400 junction, the I-285 Top End Perimeter and GA 400 North corridors and the greater Perimeter Center area is going to need to max-out on transit options.

In addition to the (long-overdue) pending reconstruction of the I-285/GA 400 interchange, that area desperately needs increased regional rail transit service on the existing MARTA Red Line corridor (...increased regional rail transit service in the form of more trains, decreased headways, express trains, an expansion of the MARTA Red Line with express commuter trains north to Cumming and Dawsonville, etc).

That area (the Perimeter Center area, the I-285 Top End Perimeter and GA 400 North corridors, etc) also desperately needs the implementation of high-frequency, high-capacity regional rail transit service on an east-west regional corridor that connects Cobb and Gwinnett counties by way of the Cumberland and Doraville areas and the aforementioned Perimeter Center area along the I-285 Top End Perimeter.

Very high-frequency, very high-capacity passenger rail transit service absolutely must be apart of the long-term transportation mobility solution in this area, particularly with the Perimeter Center area continuing to intensify in the density of development.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by joey86

I don't have data, but it's not a gut feeling. I make up my mind from experience. Drive the interchange. Go east on 285 to 400 north or west on 285 to 400 south. Driving through either direction on 400 is made obviously dangerous by the way these exits were designed.

Also, I hope you aren't suggesting removing the signs or adding bicycles to this interchange.

Sounds like a gut feeling to me.

If we really want to go for safety, we should remove the interchange all together. People will be much safer in gridlocked side-streets than speeding through an interchange. So can we drop the fake facade that this $1B project is about safety?

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by joey86

I don't have data, but it's not a gut feeling. I make up my mind from experience. Drive the interchange. Go east on 285 to 400 north or west on 285 to 400 south. Driving through either direction on 400 is made obviously dangerous by the way these exits were designed.

You have to remember that the interchange was designed in the mid-1960s and for much lower traffic levels than what exist today. Perimeter Center was basically cow pastures and maybe a few subdivisions back then.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by HayateWind

My concern is that transit won't even be on the table in the future. The state's bound to protect ROW for the long-projected HOT Lanes to run through the area, if there's even any left. Will there be any space set aside for transit in the future?

The existing north-south MARTA Red Line is already in place and functioning through the Perimeter Center area and can be upgraded and expanded as desired and/or as needed whenever funding comes available.

The state also has informal plans to implement high-capacity transit service across the I-285 Top End Perimeter between Cumberland and Doraville by way of the Perimeter Center area as seen in these links:
Transit Station Planning

http://www.revive285.com/f/TSPSAInfoSheets.pdf

Though the plans to implement high-capacity transit service across the I-285 Top End Perimeter are currently inactive and completely unfunded, it is widely assumed and expected by many that the plans for this future high-capacity transit line will most likely be upgraded to a fully grade-separated regional high-capacity PASSENGER RAIL transit line....Because of the continuing explosion of traffic congestion and development along the I-285 Top End Perimeter and throughout North Metro Atlanta in general.

Originally Posted by HayateWind

It's presented as this solution to solve congestion, and it probably will, but what are we going to do in 2040 when Perimeter Center is even larger than it is now? Spend another billion to make it three levels taller?

This project is not just a solution to help solve congestion....This project is also viewed by many state political leaders (starting with Georgia Governor Nathan Deal) as a down payment of sorts on continued Republican Party domination of Georgia's political climate.

Governor Deal announced this project in 2013 (along with the I-75 Northwest, I-75 South and I-85 Northeast toll lane expansion projects) as part of the lead-up to his 2014 re-election campaign to help get him into better position to get through the 2014 GOP Gubernatorial Primary (...a 2014 GOP Gubernatorial Primary which Deal ended up completely dominating due in no small part to the announcement of major Interstate expansion projects in politically-crucial GOP-dominated suburban counties like Cobb, North Fulton, Gwinnett and Henry).

The I-285/GA 400 interchange reconstruction project is considered to be so important to continued Republican dominance because so many Republican voters who live in GOP-dominated Northern suburban areas (most notably in GOP-dominated Northern suburban areas like North Fulton, Cobb, Gwinnett and Forsyth) either have to drive through or are directly affected by that interchange everyday while driving to and from work or to and from the airport, etc, on I-285 and GA 400.

Because the I-285/GA 400 interchange affects so many Northside commuters (Northside commuters who are also Republican-leaning voters) in politically-crucial counties like North Fulton, Cobb, Gwinnett and Forsyth counties, the interchange is viewed as being of very strategically important to continued Republican domination of the state's political climate.

[Ha-Mez]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Any data around this new interchange actually being safer? Or is this just a gut feeling thing?

Because with roads, less is often more when it comes to safety. For example, roads without speed limits are safer, and roads shared with mixes of uses (bikes, walkers, etc) and without markings or signage is safer.

"Safety" has been used as an excuse for roadway projects for years, but it is almost always just a cover for roadway expansion at tax payers cost and without any actual measured safety benefit resulting from the project.

A driver exiting Abernathy Rd southbound onto 400 will frequently try to move over 4 lanes to avoid the traffic backup of people trying to get onto I-285. This phenomenon has its own name, the "Sandy Springs Slide", and it's dangerous. This is an example of what traffic experts call a "maneuver".

Maneuvers such as this are studied and quantified. Modern roads are designed so that drivers make as few maneuvers as possible so that things are smooth and intuitive. This new interchange is designed with exactly that in mind. Using Abernathy Rd as an example, the new design diverges the Abernathy Rd southbound onto the 400 exit into two lanes- one lane goes onto 400 where it will go straight through the interchange with no I-285 backup, the other flows onto the collector lane which goes onto I-285.

Hope that helps.

[joey86]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Sounds like a gut feeling to me.

If we really want to go for safety, we should remove the interchange all together. People will be much safer in gridlocked side-streets than speeding through an interchange. So can we drop the fake facade that this $1B project is about safety?

It sounds more like you're going off a gut feeling. I've driven it enough to have seen that it's badly designed. Have you? I don't see how anyone could not see that it's badly designed in a way that causes unnecessary wrecks. It's obvious to anyone that drives it.

It's about dealing with what we have in a safe manner. We aren't ever going to look like Amsterdam. We don't need to neglect our highways to step up bike infrastructure.

[joey86]

Originally Posted by Gulch

You have to remember that the interchange was designed in the mid-1960s and for much lower traffic levels than what exist today. Perimeter Center was basically cow pastures and maybe a few subdivisions back then.

I haven't forgotten. That's part of why it needs to be replaced, but it was designed badly even for that.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by joey86

I haven't forgotten. That's part of why it needs to be replaced, but it was designed badly even for that.

I agree. Left-lane entrance ramps into mainline freeway traffic were always a stupid idea and need to just go away.