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Old 08-04-2015, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,359,253 times
Reputation: 4971

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
I'm not including SunTrust Park in this comparison. That did go down a little shady, but in the end I think it is a good thing for the Braves and for Cobb County... so I'm a little biased.

But with regards to you comment, I'm not sure the benefit per tax dollar is much greater. The streetcar services such a small number of people while well over 2 million people a year will visit the Braves stadium, let alone hundreds of thousands more throughout the year at the other entertainment venues being planned at the development. Quantifying the overall utility is difficult when you factor in the intangibles, but I certainly think the Braves stadium has a better overall return than a streetcar with barely over 1,000 riders a day. Others might disagree, but one certainly impacts a lot more people than the other.
The streetcar just set a record of 102K riders in July.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:53 PM
 
28,277 posts, read 24,886,716 times
Reputation: 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
But the streetcar cost less than 25% of the tax dollars than SunTrust Park. So the benefit per tax dollar is much greater from the streetcar.

But you won't get much argument from me on your overall message with that comment because I think we should be letting free market run transportation too. If we are going to give out our tax dollars, people deserve a better deal than the Cobb Braves deal.
I think what puzzles folks is that when the city of Atlanta gets massive dollars from the taxpayer or enters into the sports business, it is met with rounds of huzzahs and praise. People will do backflips and go through all kinds of gyrations to insist that it is actually for the good of all.

However, if anybody else does it, especially Cobb, they are the bad guy.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:53 PM
 
9,994 posts, read 6,991,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
But with regards to you comment, I'm not sure the benefit per tax dollar is much greater. The streetcar services such a small number of people while well over 2 million people a year will visit the Braves stadium, let alone hundreds of thousands more throughout the year at the other entertainment venues being planned at the development. Quantifying the overall utility is difficult when you factor in the intangibles, but I certainly think the Braves stadium has a better overall return than a streetcar with barely over 1,000 riders a day. Others might disagree, but one certainly impacts a lot more people than the other.
Right, one is entertainment the other is getting people to and from jobs, shopping, home, doctors, and other critical things. But alas, we already have a system for determining the value of things and how to allocate limited resources. We just choose not to let that system decide how money is spent for transportation and stadiums.
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Old 08-04-2015, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,359,253 times
Reputation: 4971
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
Because it is tourist season and so mismanaged they haven't started charging for it yet. Also, those are 'rides' not unique riders. If someone rides to MLK, gets off and then back on, to go back downtown, they count twice. That really isn't 102k riders. I would suggest the number would be closer to 60k riders, which is 2,000 a day. We'll see what it falls off to in January without the tourists and when people have to pay for it.
I knew this is corndog.
So by that same thought, if someone drives the Top end Perimeter both directions, they should only get counted once?
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Old 08-04-2015, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,359,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
The standard unit of measure when counting transit rides is unlinked passenger transit trips. To represent this as unique riders is inaccurate and misleading. Surely someone so passionate about anything transit would know this.
Unlinked passenger trips would be transferring from a bus to train, not riding to a destination getting off, walking around for a hour, then getting back on the streetcar.
When vehicle counts are collected, all that matters is the number of axle strikes. It could be the same car 5 times during the day.
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Old 08-04-2015, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,359,253 times
Reputation: 4971
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
And it would be equally inaccurate to represent that total as number of riders. This is a straw man argument. I never claimed that vehicle counts were a great statistic and it isn't relevant to this discussion. Why does everything you post have to turn into transit vs cars. What a narrow minded vision of the world when everything comes back to two things.

This is a Braves Stadium thread. Stay on topic.
You sure know a lot about me and my past posts for being a newbie. Have we met before, corndog?
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Old 08-04-2015, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Vinings/Cumberland in the evil county of Cobb
1,259 posts, read 1,118,901 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
I've never lived in an area where it was common to have 8 people living in 1400 sq ft poverty houses (or whatever you bragged about in the mcmansion thread), so I don't think we've met.
ouch
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,000 posts, read 4,041,730 times
Reputation: 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
Didn't MARTA ran buses (at a loss) directly to the front door of Turner Field for decades to benefit the Braves?

Of course that benefitted the fans, but so will a bridge that links parking to the new stadium.

This isn't black and white.
The Braves shuttle could stop running tomorrow if pre-agreed conditions were met.

Reinforced concrete bridges do not just come and go.

Terrible analogy.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,461 posts, read 7,319,187 times
Reputation: 4206
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallinInCobb View Post
Didn't MARTA ran buses (at a loss) directly to the front door of Turner Field for decades to benefit the Braves?

Of course that benefitted the fans, but so will a bridge that links parking to the new stadium.

This isn't black and white.
sort of, but not exactly.

The issue here is the added shuttle route ran at a large profit on operations alone. It only ended up costing a small amount when capital expenses (ie. depreciation on the buses) were accounted for.

So the Braves shuttle was actually one of the cheapest subsidies to get cars off the road, especially in areas that had high, concentrated transportation demand.

It also became appealing, given that MARTA consistently has a surplus on the mandated capital use only tax receipts and were always struggling for operational funds. So given the state mandated laws, locally the Braves Shuttle was a beneficial move in many ways.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:39 PM
 
9,994 posts, read 6,991,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
sort of, but not exactly.

The issue here is the added shuttle route ran at a large profit on operations alone. It only ended up costing a small amount when capital expenses (ie. depreciation on the buses) were accounted for.

So the Braves shuttle was actually one of the cheapest subsidies to get cars off the road, especially in areas that had high, concentrated transportation demand.

It also became appealing, given that MARTA consistently has a surplus on the mandated capital use only tax receipts and were always struggling for operational funds. So given the state mandated laws, locally the Braves Shuttle was a beneficial move in many ways.
Also, all those customer were paying fares. I bet the fare box recovery ratio was much higher on those packed Braves Shuttle busses than the system as a whole.
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