At what point does a neighborhood begin to "gentrify"? (Atlanta: crime, home)

[jeoff]

Originally Posted by cqholt

That is where O4W and Kirkwood are similar in having large section 8 apartments in proximity.

Yes, but it's similar to Oakhurst in that much of the work for the upper grades has been done for them (I think it's zoned for Inman-Grady--but, that is only at the whims of APS). Plus, it really does have a killer location. (O4W's turn seems sort of obvious now, but I am still kind of weirded out by it--in the early 90's I did volunteer work there, and remember being swarmed by young kids, and shriveled up women trying to sell me what I assume was crack cocaine. Now I take my kids to soccer practice there, and it's minivans, and the occasional Masserati--there for kids soccer, not drugs!).

[lookoutbehindyou1992]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

When whites make up at least 70% of the population at least here in Atlanta...let's be honest.

That may be the bottom line but here is my take on that. Anyone of any color can be a gentrifier. However one of the qualifications of that is a certain amount of wealth. America, is majority white, while blacks are around 14% and Hispanics are around 17%, so it stands to reason that the majority of wealth in this country is in the hands of the majority demographic. Also in the modern age, the main gentrifying group is "hipsters" (the yuppies come later after the area transitions), and while there are hipsters of all colors...for some reason that whole hipster culture has caught on the heaviest amongst millennial white people.

It's also not a color thing. I'm white and from Chicago, in Chicago most of the areas that have been gentrified were working class/immigrant white neighborhoods. White hipsters and white blue collar people don't really have anything in common just like a black hipster that grew up in Oak Park, IL has nothing in common culturally with a black inner city person. I think the whole "neighborhood becoming white" association with gentrification is a southern/western thing because from my understanding in places like Atlanta or DC or LA there aren't really any urban working class white areas and most of the urban working class is either black or Hispanic. In northern and midwest cities that's different because there are/were plenty of working class white (Irish, Italian, Polish etc.) areas in cities and these are the ones that always get gentrified first. In Brooklyn the first neighborhoods to feel the hipster explosion were Northside Williamsburg which was Italian and Jewish, and Greenpoint which was Polish. In Chicago the areas that got gentrified were Ukrainian Village (Ukrainian, goes without saying), and the other north side (east of the river) areas which had Poles and Italians and Scandinavians and Irish. Only when there were no more affordable white areas close to downtown (the remaining cheap white areas in Chicago and NYC are basically suburban quiet areas with bad train access and ugly homes) is when non-white neighborhoods like Bushwick (BK), or Pilsen (Chi) started getting all hipster and gentrified. It's definitely not about white people moving in because most of the gentrified areas in the country (and even in Atlanta, wasn't Cabbagetown poor white folks?) already had white people living there, it's about gentry moving in.

[Ant131531]

Black Yuppies wouldn't be differentiated from the blacks that already live in a transitional neighborhood. That's the thing. Whites in a transitioning neighborhood are almost always assumed to be the gentry. Sad truth, but it is the truth.

[lookoutbehindyou1992]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Black Yuppies wouldn't be differentiated from the blacks that already live in a transitional neighborhood. That's the thing. Whites in a transitioning neighborhood are almost always assumed to be the gentry. Sad truth, but it is the truth.

It's because white people are "other" visibly in black neighborhoods and also because there is a societal double standard where it's perfectly alright to complain about white folks moving into your neighborhood but its taboo for white folks to complain about their area "diversifying".

[Ant131531]

Difference is whites moving into black neighborhoods in the city generally drive up rents and effectively move those people out of those neighborhoods(those that own however can get a big payday when their real estate drives up substantially). Whites aren't being pushed out of neighborhoods when blacks move in...they just choose to move out on their own accord.

[lookoutbehindyou1992]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Difference is whites moving into black neighborhoods in the city generally drive up rents and effectively move those people out of those neighborhoods(those that own however can get a big payday when their real estate drives up substantially). Whites aren't being pushed out of neighborhoods when blacks move in...they just choose to move out on their own accord.

There are more ways to push someone out then raising rents. You know that as well as I do. It become problematic whenever the income level or the value system of the new residents changes the character of the neighborhood. My old neighborhood which was middle class polish and irish got an influx of poor Mexican immigrants who brought gang issues and lowered the standard of living. It's now about 85% Hispanic, us and all our neighbors didn't leave because of the color of the reaidents but because the neighborhood changed in a way that was not acceptable to the residents. The white flight where some nice middle class person of color buys a home on the block and then every white person leaves is a thing of the past. However if a bunch of people of much lower socioeconomic status move into the area and create problems or cause crime yes the residents have every right to complain or leave. If a bunch of white trash moved into a ritzy black area and started causing problems then you can be damn sure the residents would complain, the coin flips both ways when (true story ahead) people of another background moved into my neighborhood and started mugging elderly women and stopped me on the street and said a slur to me and said "this is our neighborhood now" we couldn't complain lest we look like bigots so my family and all our neighbors moved north to another neighborhood and now much childhood house is a crack house (/true story).

It's off the topic of gentrification but I had to make that point, I think it's more of an integration issue and a quality of life issue for existing residents in a changing area, and not necessarily a race issue and that's just from my POV from someone who has been through both, an area gentrifying and an area declining. People don't like when their home (neighborhood) changes because new people come and change the culture, the property values (both up and down) etc.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by lookoutbehindyou1992

I think the whole "neighborhood becoming white" association with gentrification is a southern/western thing because from my understanding in places like Atlanta or DC or LA there aren't really any urban working class white areas and most of the urban working class is either black or Hispanic.

Atlanta was an industrial town and it had plenty of white working class and middle class neighborhoods. Areas such as Kirkwood, Oakland city, Lakewood, Adair Park, Cascade, etc., were traditionally white. However, a number of them transitioned to black in the 1950s and 60s.

[arjay57]

Are these neighborhoods gentrifying and if so where are they in the process?

Adair Park
Beecher Hills
Benteen
Blandtown
Bolton
Boulevard Heights
Capitol View/Capitol View Manor
Castleberry Hill
Chosewood
East Atlanta
English Ave
Home Park
Howell station
Lakewood
Mozley Park
Peoplestown
Sylvan Hills
Vine City
West End
Westview

[lookoutbehindyou1992]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Atlanta was an industrial town and it had plenty of white working class and middle class neighborhoods. Areas such as Kirkwood, Oakland city, Lakewood, Adair Park, Cascade, etc., were traditionally white. However, a number of them transitioned to black in the 1950s and 60s.

Well then do black residents really have a leg to stand on in regards to complaining about white folks moving in and changing the charachter of the area? Don't you think a white person who grew up there in the 50s would feel the same way about them.


At the end of the day, no one owns a neighborhood. You can own property in the neighborhood but I have never met a homeowner complaining about rising property values, it's always renters getting mad about not being able to afford "their" homes anymore.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Are these neighborhoods gentrifying and if so where are they in the process?

Adair Park
Beecher Hills
Benteen
Blandtown
Bolton
Boulevard Heights
Capitol View/Capitol View Manor
Castleberry Hill
Chosewood
East Atlanta
English Ave
Home Park
Howell station
Lakewood
Mozley Park
Peoplestown
Sylvan Hills
Vine City
West End
Westview

A lot depends on how close the neighborhood is to other desirable areas and is there feature to attract investment; eg: BeltLine.
I would say Adair Park is beginning this process. West End is further along, but sees a lot of investment from AA families. East Atlanta is reaching critical mass. Home Park is fortunate in being sandwiched between Tech and AS.