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Old 05-10-2015, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Georgia
5,111 posts, read 4,133,344 times
Reputation: 2894

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jero23 View Post
Here's the funny thing, Gwinnett is the smallest in land area of the comparable in population counties (Mecklenburg, Wake, and Davidson). Hence, why its density is much higher than these core counties of other major Southern metro areas. I knew there was something fishy about these density scores and that is why. It's quite easy for a place with a smaller land area to have a higher density than other areas with more land because it forces more people to be packed within a (smaller) specific area.
Not only that, but Mecklenburg, Wake, and Davidson Counties contain the urban cores of each of their respective urban areas. Gwinnett doesn't. And what's up with all the NC examples? lol
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Old 05-10-2015, 01:43 PM
 
5,853 posts, read 5,193,393 times
Reputation: 3921
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpatt.marine1 View Post
I would use Hwy 13 (Buford Hwy) as the main transit corridor. It already has an established railway and is far enough from I-85 to not cause to many problems. I would shoot the MARTA line straight up that corridor and have a separate line that branches off and heads east in the median of Ga 316. That would provide rail service for 70% of Gwinnett county.
I like the Buford Highway/PIB/NS Railroad corridor as a future alignment for high-capacity passenger rail transit service between the Atlanta Airport and Gainesville.

I especially like the Buford Hwy/PIB/NS RR corridor for commuter rail service (in the form of express trains on regional Heavy Rail Transit tracks) between ATL Airport and Gainesville because that alignment is pretty straight by North Georgia standards, particularly through DeKalb, Gwinnett and Hall counties.

I completely agree that the Buford Hwy/PIB/NS RR corridor would make a great alignment for high-capacity passenger rail transit service.

Though, I think that the need for high-capacity transit service is also great along the I-85, US 29 and US 78 corridors as well.

Gwinnett County's population is quickly coming up on the 1 million-inhabitant mark and the fast-growing Atlanta region (current population 6.3 million) possibly has the potential to surpass the transit-intensive Chicago region (current population 9.9 million) in population within the next 2 decades or so.

The state of Georgia (current population 10.1 million) also has the potential (and is expected) to possibly surpass the state of Illinois (current population 12.8 million) to become the nation's 5th most populous state within the next couple of decades.

With the explosive population growth expected to continue in the Atlanta metro region, a fast-growing (and often severely-congested) heavily populated area like Gwinnett County is going to need high-capacity transit service along each of its four aforementioned major transportation corridors.

Running a high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the I-85 corridor seems logical because the I-85 corridor (anchored by an I-85 roadway which expands to as many as 20 lanes between Pleasant Hill Road and Sugarloaf Parkway) is the most heavily developed and most severely congested corridor in Gwinnett County and in OTP Northeast Metro Atlanta.
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,787 posts, read 16,795,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I like the Buford Highway/PIB/NS Railroad corridor as a future alignment for high-capacity passenger rail transit service between the Atlanta Airport and Gainesville.

I especially like the Buford Hwy/PIB/NS RR corridor for commuter rail service (in the form of express trains on regional Heavy Rail Transit tracks) between ATL Airport and Gainesville because that alignment is pretty straight by North Georgia standards, particularly through DeKalb, Gwinnett and Hall counties.

I completely agree that the Buford Hwy/PIB/NS RR corridor would make a great alignment for high-capacity passenger rail transit service.

Though, I think that the need for high-capacity transit service is also great along the I-85, US 29 and US 78 corridors as well.

Gwinnett County's population is quickly coming up on the 1 million-inhabitant mark and the fast-growing Atlanta region (current population 6.3 million) possibly has the potential to surpass the transit-intensive Chicago region (current population 9.9 million) in population within the next 2 decades or so.

The state of Georgia (current population 10.1 million) also has the potential (and is expected) to possibly surpass the state of Illinois (current population 12.8 million) to become the nation's 5th most populous state within the next couple of decades.

With the explosive population growth expected to continue in the Atlanta metro region, a fast-growing (and often severely-congested) heavily populated area like Gwinnett County is going to need high-capacity transit service along each of its four aforementioned major transportation corridors.

Running a high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the I-85 corridor seems logical because the I-85 corridor (anchored by an I-85 roadway which expands to as many as 20 lanes between Pleasant Hill Road and Sugarloaf Parkway) is the most heavily developed and most severely congested corridor in Gwinnett County and in OTP Northeast Metro Atlanta.
Running subway-like HRT between Atlanta and gainesville or athens is a waste of money as there are areas between Gwinnett and those end points that are too low of density to support the more than $100M/mile HRT cost. Those long distances are better served by commuter/intercity rail running with shirt headways during peak hours. Look at long island, which has a lot more density than Atlanta's suburbs. It is served by LIRR, commuter rail system. The NYC subway does not stretch that far because it would be a waste of resources.
The idea of funding transit extensions with P3's is a long way off and depending on how the BeltLine-P3 law gos, will decide the future of those.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
5,059 posts, read 3,846,475 times
Reputation: 2582
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Running subway-like HRT between Atlanta and gainesville or athens is a waste of money as there are areas between Gwinnett and those end points that are too low of density to support the more than $100M/mile HRT cost. Those long distances are better served by commuter/intercity rail running with shirt headways during peak hours. Look at long island, which has a lot more density than Atlanta's suburbs. It is served by LIRR, commuter rail system. The NYC subway does not stretch that far because it would be a waste of resources.
The idea of funding transit extensions with P3's is a long way off and depending on how the BeltLine-P3 law gos, will decide the future of those.
Good luck, but we've been down the "HRT to Athens" road with him before and it didn't do any good.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:49 PM
 
5,853 posts, read 5,193,393 times
Reputation: 3921
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Running subway-like HRT between Atlanta and gainesville or athens is a waste of money as there are areas between Gwinnett and those end points that are too low of density to support the more than $100M/mile HRT cost. Those long distances are better served by commuter/intercity rail running with shirt headways during peak hours. Look at long island, which has a lot more density than Atlanta's suburbs. It is served by LIRR, commuter rail system. The NYC subway does not stretch that far because it would be a waste of resources.
Those are some good points that Long Island is served by the Long Island Railroad commuter rail system because the NYC subway system does not stretch that far.

But with many stretches of the LIRR commuter rail system having an electrified third rail like HRT systems do, the LIRR does operate over many stretches like a regional Heavy Rail Transit system only with at-grade road crossings on a freight rail track network that mostly sees very little, if any, freight rail traffic on most of the stretches of track where commuter trains operate out on Long Island.

The absence of significant amounts of freight rail traffic on large portions of the LIRR commuter rail network allows many LIRR passenger trains to operate like a regional HRT system with an electrified third rail on many sections of track and with headways as low as 2 minutes between directional trains during peak hours.

Conceivably, high-capacity rail transit service could operate with more at-grade road crossings at the least-used side roads north of GA Highway 347 (Lanier Islands Parkway) between Buford and Gainesville (...there are approximately at least 7 at-grade crossings at lesser-used roadways along the existing NS Railway freight tracks between Buford and Gainesville).

Though while not as busy as the severely-congested NS and CSX freight rail tracks northwest of Atlanta, those existing NS Railway freight tracks carrying as many as 35 freight trains each day between Buford and Gainesville.

Those existing NS freight rail tracks northeast of Atlanta, between Atlanta and Gainesville are also part of a significant freight rail link between the Gulf Coast and the Carolina Piedmont/Mid-Atlantic/Northeastern U.S.

With those existing NS freight tracks running through a very fast-growing area northeast of Atlanta (lots of new industrial development is going up in South Hall County between Buford and Gainesville because of the nearby presence of I-985/GA 365 and Lake Lanier), and with the volume of freight trains expected to continue to grow on those existing tracks, two dedicated high-capacity passenger rail tracks will most likely be needed to support passenger rail transit service between Buford and Gainesville.

The area northeast of Atlanta along the I-85/I-985 Northeast corridor is a very fast-growing area with much new population growth continuing to occur and much new industrial, commercial and residential development continuing to be built.

The amount of passenger rail capacity between Atlanta and Gainesville is likely going to have to be expanded as the area continues to grow explosively.

Also, as a fast-growing hub of business, industry, education and politics and as a gateway to the Northeast Georgia Mountains region from Metro Atlanta, Gainesville is a very important city in Northeast Georgia that is deserving of a high level of passenger rail transit service....Which is why regional high-capacity passenger rail transit service (likely largely in the form of largely at-grade express commuter HRT train service north of the Lake Lanier Islands area) service should be extended out to Gainesville from Gwinnett County on two passenger rail-dedicated tracks....So that any passenger rail transit service will be able to adequately accommodate the continuing explosive growth in the Atlanta-Buford-Gainesville corridor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
The idea of funding transit extensions with P3's is a long way off and depending on how the BeltLine-P3 law gos, will decide the future of those.
With the Atlanta metro region's severe traffic problems continuing to worsen (at times on a daily basis), funding transit expansions with P3's is not as far off as it may seem.

MARTA is already starting to actively use P3's to increase revenue into the system with their growing amount of Transit-Oriented Development leases being issued at transit stations along their HRT system.

Also, Georgia's traditionally highly transit-averse state government is becoming increasingly interested in finding creative ways to finance future transit expansion as traffic problems continue to worsen and the business community (and their frustrated employees) demand more modern multimodal transportation options throughout the electorally critical Atlanta suburbs.

Like with the recent articles and discussions over the visit to Toronto by many high-ranking Atlanta officials, the Toronto region is in the process of spending $32 BILLION over 15 years on upgrading and expanding its already-robust regional transit network.

We're a bunch of damn fools if we seriously think that we can budget-cut our way out of this worsening traffic mess by implementing and operating transit on the cheap with money either from our current severely-strained and severely-limited tax sources and/or by begging the Feds.

We are likely going to have no choice but to come up with the money to improve transportation ourselves by partnering extremely heavily with our very robust private sector.

The reality is that we are just at the point where we most likely have no other options but to lean extremely heavily on funding and financing from large-scale partnerships with private entities and private citizens.

Even if we could raise more money from more conventional means like sales tax referendums (which we largely can't politically), it still would not be anywhere near enough to cover our overwhelming multimodal transportation needs. We would still need private money (and lots of it) to pay for our transportation needs.
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Old 05-11-2015, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,787 posts, read 16,795,176 times
Reputation: 5133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Those are some good points that Long Island is served by the Long Island Railroad commuter rail system because the NYC subway system does not stretch that far.

But with many stretches of the LIRR commuter rail system having an electrified third rail like HRT systems do, the LIRR does operate over many stretches like a regional Heavy Rail Transit system only with at-grade road crossings on a freight rail track network that mostly sees very little, if any, freight rail traffic on most of the stretches of track where commuter trains operate out on Long Island.

The absence of significant amounts of freight rail traffic on large portions of the LIRR commuter rail network allows many LIRR passenger trains to operate like a regional HRT system with an electrified third rail on many sections of track and with headways as low as 2 minutes between directional trains during peak hours.

Conceivably, high-capacity rail transit service could operate with more at-grade road crossings at the least-used side roads north of GA Highway 347 (Lanier Islands Parkway) between Buford and Gainesville (...there are approximately at least 7 at-grade crossings at lesser-used roadways along the existing NS Railway freight tracks between Buford and Gainesville).

Though while not as busy as the severely-congested NS and CSX freight rail tracks northwest of Atlanta, those existing NS Railway freight tracks carrying as many as 35 freight trains each day between Buford and Gainesville.

Those existing NS freight rail tracks northeast of Atlanta, between Atlanta and Gainesville are also part of a significant freight rail link between the Gulf Coast and the Carolina Piedmont/Mid-Atlantic/Northeastern U.S.

With those existing NS freight tracks running through a very fast-growing area northeast of Atlanta (lots of new industrial development is going up in South Hall County between Buford and Gainesville because of the nearby presence of I-985/GA 365 and Lake Lanier), and with the volume of freight trains expected to continue to grow on those existing tracks, two dedicated high-capacity passenger rail tracks will most likely be needed to support passenger rail transit service between Buford and Gainesville.

The area northeast of Atlanta along the I-85/I-985 Northeast corridor is a very fast-growing area with much new population growth continuing to occur and much new industrial, commercial and residential development continuing to be built.

The amount of passenger rail capacity between Atlanta and Gainesville is likely going to have to be expanded as the area continues to grow explosively.

Also, as a fast-growing hub of business, industry, education and politics and as a gateway to the Northeast Georgia Mountains region from Metro Atlanta, Gainesville is a very important city in Northeast Georgia that is deserving of a high level of passenger rail transit service....Which is why regional high-capacity passenger rail transit service (likely largely in the form of largely at-grade express commuter HRT train service north of the Lake Lanier Islands area) service should be extended out to Gainesville from Gwinnett County on two passenger rail-dedicated tracks....So that any passenger rail transit service will be able to adequately accommodate the continuing explosive growth in the Atlanta-Buford-Gainesville corridor.


With the Atlanta metro region's severe traffic problems continuing to worsen (at times on a daily basis), funding transit expansions with P3's is not as far off as it may seem.

MARTA is already starting to actively use P3's to increase revenue into the system with their growing amount of Transit-Oriented Development leases being issued at transit stations along their HRT system.

Also, Georgia's traditionally highly transit-averse state government is becoming increasingly interested in finding creative ways to finance future transit expansion as traffic problems continue to worsen and the business community (and their frustrated employees) demand more modern multimodal transportation options throughout the electorally critical Atlanta suburbs.

Like with the recent articles and discussions over the visit to Toronto by many high-ranking Atlanta officials, the Toronto region is in the process of spending $32 BILLION over 15 years on upgrading and expanding its already-robust regional transit network.

We're a bunch of damn fools if we seriously think that we can budget-cut our way out of this worsening traffic mess by implementing and operating transit on the cheap with money either from our current severely-strained and severely-limited tax sources and/or by begging the Feds.

We are likely going to have no choice but to come up with the money to improve transportation ourselves by partnering extremely heavily with our very robust private sector.

The reality is that we are just at the point where we most likely have no other options but to lean extremely heavily on funding and financing from large-scale partnerships with private entities and private citizens.

Even if we could raise more money from more conventional means like sales tax referendums (which we largely can't politically), it still would not be anywhere near enough to cover our overwhelming multimodal transportation needs. We would still need private money (and lots of it) to pay for our transportation needs.
HRT must be fully grade separated, except for that one section in CTA. If you want to use commuter rail, powered by third rail, then call it that, but the 2 technologies are different. I think the commuter rail lines should use overhead power, to keep the air cleaner and cut down on cost of a 3rd rail.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
2,363 posts, read 1,506,464 times
Reputation: 1399
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
That's still doesn't take away from the fact that those listed counties are for the most part the CBD of their metros.
You're right, but the ironic thing is about these 3 aforementioned counties doesn't have very densely developed urban cores. The highest level of dense development in their cores is no more than 10-15 blocks at the most.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: O4W
3,744 posts, read 3,612,479 times
Reputation: 2051
Dekalb is about as dense as Gwinnett and Dekalb lines stay packed with the bus system linking directly to the train.
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Old 05-11-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,787 posts, read 16,795,176 times
Reputation: 5133
Quote:
Originally Posted by afdinatl View Post
Dekalb is about as dense as Gwinnett and Dekalb lines stay packed with the bus system linking directly to the train.
That is because the existence of a train to take riders farther in more comfort, faster speeds, and more reliable headways. MARTA's current bus system is set up to feed into the stations. This hurts some routes, but helps others.
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Old 05-11-2015, 10:30 AM
bu2
 
9,344 posts, read 5,986,515 times
Reputation: 3771
We should be focusing "mass" transit on areas where there is a mass of people. That means the 5 core counties. Its just not efficient to build to Gainesville. Nor should we be encouraging "mass" density in jobs and people that far out. The more jobs get spread out, the more difficult it is to transport people, whether by roads or transit. Hall County needs to stay a suburban, low density type county for the forseeable future. There's plenty of land and opportunities in the 5 core counties.
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