Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-13-2015, 08:47 PM
 
Location: In your feelings
2,197 posts, read 2,248,526 times
Reputation: 2180

Advertisements

Anyone offering up the New Orleans schools as a state takeover success story ought to look closer. Having lived in the city post-Katrina, and having been friends with Teach for America employees working in the schools, I got a pretty eye-opening view of how it worked (or didn't, as was often the case).

It's odd that Republicans are all about local control of government, but support taking over local school districts when the districts are Democratic-leaning. Weird how that works.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-14-2015, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Georgia
4,209 posts, read 4,711,400 times
Reputation: 3611
When does this state do anything right. Anything the state touches becomes corrupt and next are our schools.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 08:18 AM
bu2
 
23,886 posts, read 14,684,834 times
Reputation: 12694
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
I'm going to put in my 2 cents, and right up front say I am extremely against OSD's. In the first paragraph of the description they state that "Based on similar, successful initiatives in Louisiana and Tennessee, it would authorize the state to temporarily step in to assist chronically failing public schools and rescue children languishing in them". This statement in of itself is false - Louisiana, specifically New Orleans, where RSD's have been enacted, are a complete failure. Tennessee is newer, but is also based on the New Orleans experience, and is proving to have the same social detriments as in Louisiana.

Research has continuously shown that RSD's in New Orleans have failed students - specifically minority students. There are many mechanisms at play causing this to happen, which can't be discussed in detail in just a single post. But, generally speaking, the RSD's in New Orleans have further segregated minority and poor students, and failed them at an extreme level. The RSD schools often have numerous barriers in place for families in a low SES category, such as enrollment times, bussing options, access to information, etc. The city and state data will say otherwise, but this is because the data is manipulated to show what the state wants it to show - that RSDs are successful, and that for-profit charter companies taking over the schools are what is needed (private in, public out). The definition of "failure" for public schools is inconsistent, and the test scores that represent failure are moved up and down depending on whether or not the state wants to take over a school, or show program success. This information is publicly available, but the general public will often not be able to dig through the immense amount of data to see it.

OSDs in GA, similar to RSDs in Lousiana, only result in further segregation of students and result in the status quo - minority and poor families unable to access the resources needed to provide quality education for their students. Since the model was first seen in New Orleans, there is a large number of peer reviewed educational research publication that study the school system. The stakeholders profiting off of the RSD will claim success, but all educational research available states that it is a failure. Please watch this debate that took place at the Harved Graduate School of Education. The debate is between the founded of New Schools for New Orleans (profit) and Dr. Kristen Buras at Georgia State University, an educational researcher who has spent her career working in New Orleans and studying the school system. The debate is over an hour, but if you are truly interested in this topic, it will provide you with a wealth of information.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb-qlt3O0As
All education research shows that New Orleans schools are doing better relative to the rest of Louisiana than they were before. The people who say they are failing ignore this fact. You can argue that they still do poorly, but they were horrendous before, ranking next to last in the state in the official state measures (couldn't find the article, there are a lot, but as I recall they moved from 86/87 to 68/87). And they were virtually all minority before. They still are overwhelmingly minority.

I was hoping to watch your video, but then I saw it was an hour and 37 minutes.

ACT scores rise in New Orleans public schools, but divide persists between local, state systems | NOLA.com

There is a lot of distortion by the anti-charter group. A different article talked about how their ACT scores were among the worst in the state and had "only" gone up two points. Of course, that means they went up 14%! A little more balanced article above:
....
At the other schools, destined for the Recovery system, pre-Katrina scores were dire. If they had been in their own school system then, it would have had the lowest score in the state by a full point: 14.4.
In 2005, 6 percent of New Orleans' ACT test takers posted results good enough for TOPS. Only 20 students, of more than 1,000, scored 20 or higher. At John F. Kennedy High, for example, 140 students took the ACT that year for an average score of 13.6.
White said that in nine years, as the Louisiana average has fallen, the Recovery score has gone up two points. Orleans Parish schools also went up by almost 1 point, resulting in a joint increase of 1.4 points....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 08:23 AM
bu2
 
23,886 posts, read 14,684,834 times
Reputation: 12694
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonta4 View Post
When does this state do anything right. Anything the state touches becomes corrupt and next are our schools.
Seriously? Never heard of the APS cheating scandal? Did you not know the previous superintendent of DeKalb is in jail along with his construction superintendent? And Gwinnet which does things well was overpaying for school land because developers got tipped off (and a couple of people connected to the county government are in jail for that).

I don't think there's anything more corrupt in this state than the school districts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 09:23 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,716,202 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
All education research shows that New Orleans schools are doing better relative to the rest of Louisiana than they were before. The people who say they are failing ignore this fact. You can argue that they still do poorly, but they were horrendous before, ranking next to last in the state in the official state measures (couldn't find the article, there are a lot, but as I recall they moved from 86/87 to 68/87). And they were virtually all minority before. They still are overwhelmingly minority.

I was hoping to watch your video, but then I saw it was an hour and 37 minutes.

ACT scores rise in New Orleans public schools, but divide persists between local, state systems | NOLA.com

There is a lot of distortion by the anti-charter group. A different article talked about how their ACT scores were among the worst in the state and had "only" gone up two points. Of course, that means they went up 14%! A little more balanced article above:
....
At the other schools, destined for the Recovery system, pre-Katrina scores were dire. If they had been in their own school system then, it would have had the lowest score in the state by a full point: 14.4.
In 2005, 6 percent of New Orleans' ACT test takers posted results good enough for TOPS. Only 20 students, of more than 1,000, scored 20 or higher. At John F. Kennedy High, for example, 140 students took the ACT that year for an average score of 13.6.
White said that in nine years, as the Louisiana average has fallen, the Recovery score has gone up two points. Orleans Parish schools also went up by almost 1 point, resulting in a joint increase of 1.4 points....
The video is pretty long, but I really suggest you watch it if you are interested in this topic. It covers a wealth of information, and you get to hear the sides of both the educational research community and the leaders within RSD schools. I'd also like to clarify what educational research is. It is not newspaper articles reporting statistics, or the school system itself releasing its data. Educational research is like any other scientific research - it is a peer reviewed process that digs into papers, critiquing their literature reviews, their methodologies, and their conclusions to ensure high integrity and ethics in the scientific process. Newspaper articles don't undergo this process, and can't be called educational research. The only true educational research I have seen published does not support the RSD model, and often conclude that it is in fact not improving any student outcomes. On the surface, it may look like it is, but when you begin to, say, see the trees through the forest, there is A LOT wrong with the model.

There is a lot of educational research out there proving that RSD's in New Orleans have failed many students, specifically minority and poor students. This isn't distortion by the anti-charter group, it's actual research on the school system. The report you linking is just a newspaper article reporting ACT scores, but test scores aren't the only indicator of the success or failure of a system, as the test scores are more closely correlated with the demographics within the system. It is important to keep in mind that not every student is expected to take the ACT or SAT - only those who are college bound. The ACT is not a required state test, and is therefore a biased measure of success. This immediately will bias scores towards those students who want to continue their education, whom are typically those who have already done well in school. Poor ACT scores further show that the system is failing students since it is those students who are the within the higher achieving group taking the test. In the case of NOLA, it makes sense that ACT scores might have gone up, but it isn't because of an improvement within the system. The RSD system in New Orleans promotes a high suspension rate and a high drop-out (or more accurately, push-out) of the systems poorest and most troubled students. The test scores are a reflection of this happening - they are no longer educating all students to have the option to continue their education in college, but rather select groups of students, and it is those students who are college bound. So, even if the article you posted is balanced, it is not at all a measure of success for a school system, rather it is an inherently biased measure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 09:45 AM
bu2
 
23,886 posts, read 14,684,834 times
Reputation: 12694
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
The video is pretty long, but I really suggest you watch it if you are interested in this topic. It covers a wealth of information, and you get to hear the sides of both the educational research community and the leaders within RSD schools. I'd also like to clarify what educational research is. It is not newspaper articles reporting statistics, or the school system itself releasing its data. Educational research is like any other scientific research - it is a peer reviewed process that digs into papers, critiquing their literature reviews, their methodologies, and their conclusions to ensure high integrity and ethics in the scientific process. Newspaper articles don't undergo this process, and can't be called educational research. The only true educational research I have seen published does not support the RSD model, and often conclude that it is in fact not improving any student outcomes. On the surface, it may look like it is, but when you begin to, say, see the trees through the forest, there is A LOT wrong with the model.

There is a lot of educational research out there proving that RSD's in New Orleans have failed many students, specifically minority and poor students. This isn't distortion by the anti-charter group, it's actual research on the school system. The report you linking is just a newspaper article reporting ACT scores, but test scores aren't the only indicator of the success or failure of a system, as the test scores are more closely correlated with the demographics within the system. It is important to keep in mind that not every student is expected to take the ACT or SAT - only those who are college bound. The ACT is not a required state test, and is therefore a biased measure of success. This immediately will bias scores towards those students who want to continue their education, whom are typically those who have already done well in school. Poor ACT scores further show that the system is failing students since it is those students who are the within the higher achieving group taking the test. In the case of NOLA, it makes sense that ACT scores might have gone up, but it isn't because of an improvement within the system. The RSD system in New Orleans promotes a high suspension rate and a high drop-out (or more accurately, push-out) of the systems poorest and most troubled students. The test scores are a reflection of this happening - they are no longer educating all students to have the option to continue their education in college, but rather select groups of students, and it is those students who are college bound. So, even if the article you posted is balanced, it is not at all a measure of success for a school system, rather it is an inherently biased measure.
Given that the ACT scores reflect those going to college, the poorest students weren't taking it, so its probably a much better measure than you give it credit for. As for dropout rates, you are making the same mistake I pointed out. You point out how high it is without noting that it is much lower than before. New Orleans Dropout Rate Plummets 31% | Educate Now!
The system isn't as poor as before, but its still pretty poor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 10:32 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,716,202 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Given that the ACT scores reflect those going to college, the poorest students weren't taking it, so its probably a much better measure than you give it credit for. As for dropout rates, you are making the same mistake I pointed out. You point out how high it is without noting that it is much lower than before. New Orleans Dropout Rate Plummets 31% | Educate Now!
The system isn't as poor as before, but its still pretty poor.
I don't understand your point. ACT scores are a biased measure, not a better measure. Why is it OK to leave the poorest students out of your measure for success, or they inferior to the other students? All students should be held to a high standard of academic achievement, and be provided the resources that allow them to decide if they want to go to college or not. A school system is all of its students, not just its college bound students. We can't fail one group of students, do a little better with another group, and claim success. There needs to be across the board improvement not just in test scores, but in pedagogy, student social and mental health, student interest and motivation, etc.

In terms of drop-out rates, it is you making the same mistake I pointed out. You can't go purely by data reported by the district without studying the factors leading to drop-out, or the definitions of the term itself and reporting procedures. This doesn't just go for New Orleans, but for other school districts as well. The definition of drop-out varies, and the reporting codes also vary. For example, a student might transfer to another school, but because they left their previous school they may be reported in that district as a drop-out, when they aren't - these are "lost transfers". Likewise, this can happen in reverse, where students who actually do drop-out are not recorded as such for various reasons (such as age, expulsion, etc.), lowering drop-out rates.

School data is not as rational as you are reading it. It is very complex, oftentimes definitions and reporting are not consistent, and there are many social and political factors at play that dictate student achievement and how achievement is reported. This is why peer reviewed research should be your source of information, not newspaper articles that look at some stats and say, "Hey look, we're doing better!". Even if the school system is doing better, you always have to ask why. What happened there? Are they actually doing better for all students of all races, SES, etc.? Are the data reported accurate? What are the extraneous variables that may better explain student success outcomes? Now that we have better student outcomes, are we missing any students in these data? If so, what happened to them, and why?

Also - I just noticed your source is Educate Now!. Do you know who this is? You won't see Educate Now! saying anything negative regarding RSDs, they have a direct stake in its success. The founder of Educate Now! is Leslie Jacobs, who is the person who created the Recovery School Districts. That is a direct conflict of interest. You can't source a company whose founder is the architect of Recovery School Districts in New Orleans - of course they will report RSD success. This is a very biased source.

Last edited by CCATL; 08-14-2015 at 10:40 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 10:54 AM
 
31,995 posts, read 36,572,943 times
Reputation: 13254
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
Please watch this debate that took place at the Harved Graduate School of Education. The debate is between the founded of New Schools for New Orleans (profit) and Dr. Kristen Buras at Georgia State University, an educational researcher who has spent her career working in New Orleans and studying the school system. The debate is over an hour, but if you are truly interested in this topic, it will provide you with a wealth of information.
Thanks for the video, CCATL. The lady opposed to the state school district is so over the top that it's a little hard to follow but I get the general drift of what they are saying.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 11:03 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,716,202 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Thanks for the video, CCATL. The lady opposed to the state school district is so over the top that it's a little hard to follow but I get the general drift of what they are saying.
No problem! Yes, she is very passionate about her work. I've seen her speak, and she is quite exciting to listen to. She is truly a top educational researcher in the RSD model and its social and political outcomes. Although, I feel that sometimes her passion for the subject may inhibit the message she is trying to get across. I'm not sure if any of her papers are free to read via a google search, but she is quite published in this area. I'd suggest looking her up - Kristen Buras - and seeing if you can read some of her papers. They will probably be easier to follow than her passionate speaking.

*Note - I'm not saying the papers aren't free because she profits off them. Like any other academic, she publishes in textbooks and peer-reviewed journals, which require membership to read. Topic for another day, but this is also a big problem in academia. When the only free sources of information are newspapers, the media, or advertisements, how can anybody have access to an unbiased source to read and form their own informed conclusions?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2015, 11:05 AM
bu2
 
23,886 posts, read 14,684,834 times
Reputation: 12694
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
I don't understand your point. ACT scores are a biased measure, not a better measure. Why is it OK to leave the poorest students out of your measure for success, or they inferior to the other students? All students should be held to a high standard of academic achievement, and be provided the resources that allow them to decide if they want to go to college or not. A school system is all of its students, not just its college bound students. We can't fail one group of students, do a little better with another group, and claim success. There needs to be across the board improvement not just in test scores, but in pedagogy, student social and mental health, student interest and motivation, etc.

In terms of drop-out rates, it is you making the same mistake I pointed out. You can't go purely by data reported by the district without studying the factors leading to drop-out, or the definitions of the term itself and reporting procedures. This doesn't just go for New Orleans, but for other school districts as well. The definition of drop-out varies, and the reporting codes also vary. For example, a student might transfer to another school, but because they left their previous school they may be reported in that district as a drop-out, when they aren't - these are "lost transfers". Likewise, this can happen in reverse, where students who actually do drop-out are not recorded as such for various reasons (such as age, expulsion, etc.), lowering drop-out rates.

School data is not as rational as you are reading it. It is very complex, oftentimes definitions and reporting are not consistent, and there are many social and political factors at play that dictate student achievement and how achievement is reported. This is why peer reviewed research should be your source of information, not newspaper articles that look at some stats and say, "Hey look, we're doing better!". Even if the school system is doing better, you always have to ask why. What happened there? Are they actually doing better for all students of all races, SES, etc.? Are the data reported accurate? What are the extraneous variables that may better explain student success outcomes? Now that we have better student outcomes, are we missing any students in these data? If so, what happened to them, and why?

Also - I just noticed your source is Educate Now!. Do you know who this is? You won't see Educate Now! saying anything negative regarding RSDs, they have a direct stake in its success. The founder of Educate Now! is Leslie Jacobs, who is the person who created the Recovery School Districts. That is a direct conflict of interest. You can't source a company whose founder is the architect of Recovery School Districts in New Orleans - of course they will report RSD success. This is a very biased source.
Did you read the article? They pointed out how poorly the district did overall before pointing out the improvement. Everyone acknowledges that the demographics aren't quite as difficult as they were in 2005.

You don't seem to be getting my point on the ACT. The poorest kids didn't take it before, therefore if RSD is somehow driving them off as you say, it doesn't impact the comparison of 2005 ACT scores vs. 2014 ACT scores. Those kids weren't in either population. Thus, that part of the population is doing better.

I somehow figured you would dismiss data that doesn't support your thesis. New Orleans 2005 had a higher dropout rate than New Orleans 2014. Your argument is totally biased and silly. Now if you can demonstrate that they changed their method, that would be an argument. Instead you just dismiss it as "it might be different" because it doesn't support your point. With fewer dropouts, New Orleans appears to be serving the portion of the population not taking the ACT better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top