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Old 02-09-2017, 11:43 PM
 
1,386 posts, read 2,481,199 times
Reputation: 821

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Do you have any actual data to show that a majority of the Brookhaven citizens didn't want this?
Every online forum. Every person/neighbor I knowr. There was ONE, one person I knew for it.

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You're right, it will add cars, but so will just about anything.
Uhh, yea, not at this scale. Have you been on Dresden at rush hour? Do you live here?

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It is not practical for a person to live, work, and get everything they need by walking in Brookhaven, not on a large scale. Transit is a little better. Biking is almost impossible.
We get around just fine in our golf carts.

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You know what will only continue? Developers wanting to capitalize on proximate to a rapid transit station. That, and they will be much less likely to negotiate so well with the city.
Too bad they will have still deal with the community/city at that time as well. And quite frankly, as our tax dollars fund their very existence, we should have more of a say over a MARTA TOD project. There will always be developers looking to put their wallet first vs the goals of the community. That is fact.

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You know what will make traffic worse no matter what? The continued growth of the metro in general. No body has any real alternatives, so they're forced to drive.
So if I'm following here. All Brookhaven has to do to decrease traffic is get the entire MSA to stop growing and throw up some office and apartments next to a MARTA station. Wow. Hopefully like-minded folks like yourself can band together to get this accomplished.

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Brookhaven didn't win anything from this. All they did was perpetuate the current situation, and actually stalled the point at which not needing a car is a realistic concept. They stalled and stalled and stalled until their likely best possible partner in development decided to abandon the project.
Best partner? Because there is a real big shortage of developers right now.

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Hey, guess what a significant portion of the land was allocated for: PUBLIC AMENITIES LIKE PARK SPACE, PUBLIC ART, AND A LIBRARY.
I saw the renderings. Small amts green space btwn the buildings LOL give me a break. Nothing amounted to a park. Keep stretching.

We get it dude....that we don't get it. You've got all the answers.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,405 posts, read 2,731,148 times
Reputation: 2159
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
Every online forum. Every person/neighbor I knowr. There was ONE, one person I knew for it.
That's neither a representative nor a statistically significant sample. You and your friends' opinions are as much anecdotes as mine is. The angry make their voices known over the content, and we tend to self-segregate towards those with like minds. There fore it would not surprise me if you're applying far too much significance to what you have personally heard.

I would like to see some actual, legitimate polling rather than take your (or my) word for it.

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Uhh, yea, not at this scale. Have you been on Dresden at rush hour? Do you live here?
I have been through Dresden at rush hour, and I live close enough to have to go through the area every now and then.

Like I said, literally everything adds traffic. Some build environments are better at providing alternatives. What is there now is not that environment. The planned development would have been a solid step towards achieving that environment.

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We get around just fine in our golf carts.
So screw everyone else who doesn't have a golf cart? Also, do you take your golf cart out onto Peachtree? Because I'd imagine that to be near suicide.

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Too bad they will have still deal with the community/city at that time as well. And quite frankly, as our tax dollars fund their very existence, we should have more of a say over a MARTA TOD project. There will always be developers looking to put their wallet first vs the goals of the community. That is fact.
MARTA, of all the developers that you could have fought with, was the one most focused towards legitimately meeting the 'goals of the community'. That is more than evidenced by the sheer amount of time that they gave the city, through education and out reach and design changes.

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So if I'm following here. All Brookhaven has to do to decrease traffic is get the entire MSA to stop growing and throw up some office and apartments next to a MARTA station. Wow. Hopefully like-minded folks like yourself can band together to get this accomplished.
You got the first part of that right. The second wasn't, though, since new office buildings add traffic.

Yes, traffic literally will not improve in a healthy economy. You can add lanes all you want, but they will fill in from latent and induced demand. You can block developments all you want, but other parts of the metro right by you will fill in and more people will drive through your area anyway.

The best possible option, is to make sure that you have solid alternatives to driving for as many people as possible. Maintaining low density does not facilitate that at all. A bunch of stuff built close together won't end traffic, but at least you'll be able to walk to work or to get food or to go to a shop. At least you could bike, or take the bus. It doesn't solve traffic, but you wouldn't have to be part of traffic if you can get to everything another way without much fret. Density is required for that, though.

Actually, there is another option: charge everyone trying to drive in the area. Best of luck with that one, and more power to you for it if y'all try it.

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Best partner? Because there is a real big shortage of developers right now.
They dedicated far more energy to y'all's wants than any other developer I've heard of, yet MARTA is the one who gets the run around. Yeah, solid representation you've got there in the city.

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I saw the renderings. Small amts green space btwn the buildings LOL give me a break. Nothing amounted to a park. Keep stretching.


Those green spaces and open plaza spaces in the actual TOD are not insignificant. They are rather large spaces open to the public, which were planned to have grass, shade trees, and water features. One of those spaces is as big, and in many cases, bigger than many blocks downtown. They're certainly bigger than Hurt Park, and likely as big as Woodruff park when combined. They're no Piedmont Park, but they were certainly nothing to sneer at.

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We get it dude....that we don't get it. You've got all the answers.
I won't even pretend to have a significant chunk of the answers, but I'm beginning to think you really don't get it either. Brookhaven is well inside the core of the 9th largest metro in the nation. Atlanta, whether or not some seem to believe it, is a MAJOR city for the country. As such, we are ever more a powerhouse of economy, but that means people need to live here. We're growing, and are only going to keep doing so. Those people will come here regardless of whether or not MARTA builds a TOD at Brookhaven.

What will happen, though, is that there will now be fewer options for those people to, even if it was unlikely, live without a car. Now, instead of having the possibility of those people, who will come here regardless, there is no alternative.Some people will now have little to no option but to drive where they might otherwise not have. We can't make traffic better, but we can limit its overall impact, that requires building as much density as we can, around as many transit stations as we can, with as much additional connectivity as we can get.

That is a requirement that will come on the scale of the entire metro. Brookhaven does not exist in a vacuum. It does not decide only for itself. It is part of the bigger picture, and has done both the metro and itself a disservice in the long run. I hope the decision is changed, because we'll need as much TOD as we can get.

Nobody won here. Not even those who think they have.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:56 PM
 
Location: In your feelings
2,199 posts, read 1,490,394 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
MARTA can't afford to let it sit.
They can, and they will.

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Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Nobody won here. Not even those who think they have.
Except maybe the people who live around the King Memorial station! Fingers crossed.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:19 PM
 
28,136 posts, read 24,659,949 times
Reputation: 9534
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Nobody won here. Not even those who think they have.
What about the folks in Brookhaven who are up to their eyeballs in density?

Seems to me they deserve a chance to shape their community they'd like it.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:49 PM
 
1,386 posts, read 2,481,199 times
Reputation: 821
The green spaces btwn the buildings are for the people in the buildings/apts to enjoy, not a destination park. Does nothing for the residents. And yes, they are small. I'm not going to load the kids in the golf cart and say "lets go to the park" and hang out there

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What will happen, though, is that there will now be fewer options for those people to, even if it was unlikely, live without a car. Now, instead of having the possibility of those people, who will come here regardless, there is no alternative.
With the THREE new apartment complexes in the past few yrs and one on the way, its getting plenty dense over there. At what point will it be enough? When those are bulldozed and replaced with 40 story buildings?

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I have been through Dresden at rush hour, and I live close enough to have to go through the area every now and then.
Glad we have even more people who don't live here and telling us what we need.

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That's neither a representative nor a statistically significant sample. You and your friends' opinions are as much anecdotes as mine is. The angry make their voices known over the content, and we tend to self-segregate towards those with like minds. There fore it would not surprise me if you're applying far too much significance to what you have personally heard.
I get that naysayers will always be louder. But there just wasn't anyone for it. If you drove down Dresden everyday I'm sure you'd have a different perspective.


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MARTA, of all the developers that you could have fought with, was the one most focused towards legitimately meeting the 'goals of the community'. That is more than evidenced by the sheer amount of time that they gave the city, through education and out reach and design changes.
Every project has design changes. Every developer wants to do X. So they submit X + a bunch of BS in hopes they get back close to X. Don't feed me that design change b.s. They know what a community wants. They aren't stupid.

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What will happen, though, is that there will now be fewer options for those people to, even if it was unlikely, live without a car. Now, instead of having the possibility of those people, who will come here regardless, there is no alternative
Lets be honest, 99% of the people who would be coming and going on a weekday here will be via car. MARTA accommodates a certain economic population segment for the most part. That doesn't include people who can afford $1500+ for a 1bd apartment. Yea, yea, everyone knows someone that takes MARTA who can afford a car. They are certainly the exception, not the rule and never will be in Atlanta. I'm talking about weekday riders not airport/sport/event riders.

I have a 1/2 dozen restaurants walking distance to my house. I feel I won. I wouldn't take another three to make Dresden even more of a parking lot, trying to absorb this project.

Move here and then I'd respect your opinion a little more.
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Old 02-10-2017, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,405 posts, read 2,731,148 times
Reputation: 2159
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
What about the folks in Brookhaven who are up to their eyeballs in density?

Seems to me they deserve a chance to shape their community they'd like it.
Oh please. Virginia Highland is more dense than Brookhaven (literally), and that's without a heavy-rail station. Given that, it sets an awful pitiful image of what it means to be 'up in their eyeballs in density'.

Sure they deserve a chance to shape their community, but they do not get to do so to the detriment of the rest of the Metro. They are a city in the core, and served by rapid transit. To remain at their current density will not do a single thing to help anyone in the long run. Sure, home values will go up, but so will taxes. More traffic will come through no matter what, and they'll still have no real alternatives than to drive. Ultimately, I'm not saying they don't deserve a chance to shape their community, I'm saying their choice in the shape is a terrible one.

Besides, MARTA more than gave them that chance, more so than any other developer.
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:20 AM
 
992 posts, read 516,823 times
Reputation: 571
There is a very vocal NIMBY contingent in Brookhaven.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:32 AM
 
28,136 posts, read 24,659,949 times
Reputation: 9534
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Oh please. Virginia Highland is more dense than Brookhaven (literally), and that's without a heavy-rail station. Given that, it sets an awful pitiful image of what it means to be 'up in their eyeballs in density'.

Sure they deserve a chance to shape their community, but they do not get to do so to the detriment of the rest of the Metro. They are a city in the core, and served by rapid transit. To remain at their current density will not do a single thing to help anyone in the long run. Sure, home values will go up, but so will taxes. More traffic will come through no matter what, and they'll still have no real alternatives than to drive. Ultimately, I'm not saying they don't deserve a chance to shape their community, I'm saying their choice in the shape is a terrible one.

Besides, MARTA more than gave them that chance, more so than any other developer.
I seriously doubt that Virginia Highland is as dense as Brookhaven.

And before anybody gets on a high horse about Brookhaven NIMBY's, leave us not forget how freaked out Virginia Highland got over adding ONE mixed use project. The Mix@841 called for 40,000 sf of retail, 12-16 townhouse units and a 275-space parking deck (peanuts compared to the massive projects they've been cramming into Brookhaven), yet you would have thought somebody had proposed dropping an atomic bomb.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,405 posts, read 2,731,148 times
Reputation: 2159
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
I seriously doubt that Virginia Highland is as dense as Brookhaven.
Virginia Highlands, Atlanta, GA: 2.130 square miles with 6,584 people per square mile (source)

Brookhaven, GA: 7.8 square miles with 5,187 people per square mile (source)


Quote:
And before anybody gets on a high horse about Brookhaven NIMBY's, leave us not forget how freaked out Virginia Highland got over adding ONE mixed use project. The Mix@841 called for 40,000 sf of retail, 12-16 townhouse units and a 275-space parking deck (peanuts compared to the massive projects they've been cramming into Brookhaven), yet you would have thought somebody had proposed dropping an atomic bomb.
Virginia Highland also doesn't have a heave rail station sitting within it.

Besides, the point wasn't about who's NIMBY's are worse, but that Brookhaven, a core-metro city with high-capacity transit at its heart is less dense than an in town neighborhood without any such service.
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Old 02-11-2017, 06:37 PM
 
28,136 posts, read 24,659,949 times
Reputation: 9534
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Virginia Highlands, Atlanta, GA: 2.130 square miles with 6,584 people per square mile (source)

Brookhaven, GA: 7.8 square miles with 5,187 people per square mile (source)




Virginia Highland also doesn't have a heave rail station sitting within it.

Besides, the point wasn't about who's NIMBY's are worse, but that Brookhaven, a core-metro city with high-capacity transit at its heart is less dense than an in town neighborhood without any such service.
The census tracts in the area in question (i.e., central Brookhaven in the vicinity of the MARTA station) are denser than Virginia Highland. (See Mapping the 2010 U.S. Census).

These folks have been hammered by development in the last couple of decades. Let them catch their breath and decide what they want their community to be. More density isn't the Holy Grail anyway.
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