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Old 03-04-2017, 06:05 PM
 
1,459 posts, read 2,608,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
1 in 10 is better than the 0 in 10 who would be able to use it if it was never built.

Building more around their stations, offering more housing, and food, and jobs, and shops right at their stations IS MARTA offering a better product.

I can't tell if you really believe what you type. Its that preposterous.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,554 posts, read 3,022,690 times
Reputation: 2254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
I can't tell if you really believe what you type. Its that preposterous.
I could say the same to you.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:27 PM
 
Location: North Atlanta
5,408 posts, read 3,806,418 times
Reputation: 2968
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
I could say the same to you.

You're talking to a guy that wants the Brookhaven station's massive parking lot to become a park.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:05 PM
 
1,459 posts, read 2,608,205 times
Reputation: 909
So whether or not MARTA is a good product, you think we should just pile on top of it in hopes more people ride it. And in doing so would make it a better product? What????

The reality is (you seem to like that phrase) is that MARTA sucks. Throwing up some office and apartments next to it does not make it better. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL RIDE IT. How about we poll the people in the Lindbergh apartments/office and see if they ride marta to/from work. What do you think the response will be?

Fix MARTA first and then maybe you'll have a point. Until then one can dream that Brookhaven would lease the land from MARTA and make it a park.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Valdosta (Atlanta Native)
3,517 posts, read 3,051,520 times
Reputation: 2316
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
So whether or not MARTA is a good product, you think we should just pile on top of it in hopes more people ride it. And in doing so would make it a better product? What????

The reality is (you seem to like that phrase) is that MARTA sucks. Throwing up some office and apartments next to it does not make it better. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL RIDE IT. How about we poll the people in the Lindbergh apartments/office and see if they ride marta to/from work. What do you think the response will be?

Fix MARTA first and then maybe you'll have a point. Until then one can dream that Brookhaven would lease the land from MARTA and make it a park.
A park in an area that's barely walkable? Why would you build a park with no areas of interest around it? The TOD would be a better use of land (and can still include a park that'll actually get used). This isn't OTP Cobb or Gwinnett, we need better uses of land.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:41 PM
 
Location: North Atlanta
5,408 posts, read 3,806,418 times
Reputation: 2968
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonta4 View Post
A park in an area that's barely walkable? Why would you build a park with no areas of interest around it? The TOD would be a better use of land (and can still include a park that'll actually get used). This isn't OTP Cobb or Gwinnett, we need better uses of land.
This
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,554 posts, read 3,022,690 times
Reputation: 2254
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
So whether or not MARTA is a good product, you think we should just pile on top of it in hopes more people ride it. And in doing so would make it a better product? What????
Yes, allowing MARTA to build residencies and commercial space (and civic space, for that matter), is improving ridership. The development would add new sources for trips, and new destinations for people in the existing service area to end up at.

Those are new jobs, new restaurants, new shops, new homes, and new places of socialization that would all be brought to direct access with the MARTA system, all while bringing in additional revenue for the system, which in turn allows the agency to fund additional improvements.

More riders, more access, and more funding.

That, in its purest form, is improving the product.


Quote:
The reality is (you seem to like that phrase) is that MARTA sucks. Throwing up some office and apartments next to it does not make it better. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL RIDE IT. How about we poll the people in the Lindbergh apartments/office and see if they ride marta to/from work. What do you think the response will be?

Fix MARTA first and then maybe you'll have a point. Until then one can dream that Brookhaven would lease the land from MARTA and make it a park.
According to this map (you'll need to zoom in to see the specific census tract), 10% - 20% of those who lived immediately in the Lindbergh area, in 2015, use transit. Of those who lived around the area, 5% - 10% use transit.

That's hardly none.

The actual reality (and yes, I do like that phrase, glad you noticed) is that:
  • MARTA is currently undergoing an overhaul of its bus system
  • MARTA is undergoing a plethora of smaller projects to improve the system's ease of use
  • MARTA is getting prepared to build new high-capacity routes in the City of Atlanta in the next few years
  • MARTA is already adding new destinations and sources of riders at other TOD projects, increasing reach without even building new routes
  • MARTA is a hot topic in Fulton and DeKalb, with citizen support for expansion as soon as the state can get its act together
  • MARTA is a growing topic in Gwinnett, with likely citizen support for joining (and taxing) as soon as the county can get its act together
MARTA is already in the process of improving itself, as well as growing its reach to add to the already long list of places one can get to with the system. By the time any development is finished at Brookhaven, a large chunk of improvements will be completed, with many more under construction, and even more in the pipe.

Furthermore...
  • More and more companies are looking at transit access as a reason to locate within the metro, bringing more jobs within reach
  • The metro will grow 2.5 Million people by 2040
  • The City of Atlanta will grow to 1.5 Million on its own by 2050 (That's 3.2 times the city's 2015 estimated population)
  • That puts the City (1,500,000 people; 134.00 square miles; 11,194.0 people per square mile) on the same level of modern-day Philadelphia (1,517,550 people; 135.09 square miles; 11,233.6 people per square mile)
  • Our roads in the city and metro are mostly built out, and many are already over capacity
  • Our metro (5,700,000 people) is already close to / on the same league as Philadelphia's (6,000,000)
  • We do not have the robust regional rail / high-capacity transit network that Philly does, nor does it look like we'll have one any time soon
The metro WILL GROW whether or not this development happens. We have an opportunity here to settle a portion of the coming population in a situation where they can do everyday activities without needing a car. We have an opportunity to settle a portion of the coming population where they do not contribute to the surface road congestion, where they would have to otherwise.

No, not every single person will live car free, but 1 in 10 is, in fact, better than 0 in 10.

Last edited by fourthwarden; 03-04-2017 at 08:39 PM..
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
5,253 posts, read 4,003,076 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
So, we shouldn't give more people easier access to the transit system because... the transit system isn't easy to access?
Getting to the transit system isn't necessarily the issue, getting to where you're going however is!
Quote:
Building more on top of transit stations allow more people direct access to both residences and commercial properties, lowing commute times on that system.
Assuming they're commuting to places the system goes.
Quote:
Not building only scatters development and resents who could have otherwise used the transit, to places where they can't.
Or to places they can that can better absorb the people, like Edgewood, or Avondale.
Quote:
The transit is already built, in the case of the existing MARTA line and bus routes, or is on the way, in the forms of the bus system's overhaul and various high-capacity transit routes moving forward.
Again, only if the transit GOES where people need it to. From Brookhaven, transit can reasonably get you to three places, Midtown, Downtown, and the airport. People will drive to Buckhead, it's right there. There's no real transit to Perimeter from Brookhaven. There's no real transit to Cumberland from Brookhaven. There's no real transit to Emory and Decatur from Brookhaven.
Quote:
Density and transit are a supporting pair. Either one can lead to the other being better. More destinations / sources built around transit makes existing transit more useful, while more transit reaching more places make those places transit accessible.

Both expanding transit and increasing density around existing transit should occur at the same time.
Fine in theory, but this is the real world. If I could snap my fingers and add density and transit, I'd do it, but again, this is the real world. The transit HAS to be there first, otherwise, you're just adding to road congestion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
1 in 10 is better than the 0 in 10 who would be able to use it if it was never built.

Building more around their stations, offering more housing, and food, and jobs, and shops right at their stations IS MARTA offering a better product.
NOT IF THEY ARE STILL DRIVING TO MOST OF THE PLACES! Why is this concept so hard to understand? Seriously, tell my what you're missing, why it doesn't seem to make sense, what else can I provide to help you understand reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
*SNIP*The metro WILL GROW whether or not this development happens. We have an opportunity here to settle a portion of the coming population in a situation where they can do everyday activities without needing a car. We have an opportunity to settle a portion of the coming population where they do not contribute to the surface road congestion, where they would have to otherwise.

No, not every single person will live car free, but 1 in 10 is, in fact, better than 0 in 10.
You're talking broadly about the Metro again. We're focused here only on Brookhaven. The fact is, not building this, won't affect the Metro substantially, you say it yourself, 5 million people, this development at 1000 (not even that?) is .02% of the Metro area. That's TINY! But the negative effect on Brookhaven of building this is HUGE! Why is this hard to understand? Metro Atlanta does not live and die on one development, Brookhaven can.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,554 posts, read 3,022,690 times
Reputation: 2254
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW View Post
Getting to the transit system isn't necessarily the issue, getting to where you're going however is!
And adding places to go brings new opportunities for people to get somewhere they want by using that transit. The TOD would have brought a library, food places, new residencies for people to visit family and friends, and shops.

These are sources of new destinations for people to go to.

Quote:
Assuming they're commuting to places the system goes.
Yes. It is not a crazy assumption to make, no matter how much y'all try to play it off as.

As hard as it might be to consider some people will make the decision to live on a transit system so that they can use it to get to work.

Quote:
Or to places they can that can better absorb the people, like Edgewood, or Avondale.
Okay, let's run through the concept of overall supply here.

For simplicity sake, let's say there are 1000 people who are moving into the metro, with a corresponding 1000 residencies. Let's say, that Edgewood, Avondale, and Brookhaven TODs, together, make up 300 people worth of the 1000 total residencies. Additionally, 500 can live in an area directly adjacent to transit.

5% of the people not living on top of / adjacent to the stations will use transit, 10% living near to the station will use transit, and 15% of those living in a TOD will use transit. So, with all three TODs, that's (5%*300)+(10%*500)+(15%*300) = 110 transit riders, or 11% of the total.


Okay, so, if only Edgewood and Avondale get TODs, then that's only 200 residencies directly on top of the station. There are still only 500 residencies near transit, so those 100 people now have to live elsewhere, or farther away from transit. Now we have (5%*400)+(10%*500)+(15%*200) = 100 transit riders, or 10% of the total.

With the removal of one TOD, we've lost an entire percentage point of people taking transit. That's 10 more people who must now drive, who are contributing to surface street congestion when they could have otherwise not been.

That is what I've been saying over and over and over. There is a certain number of people who will come here no matter what. The percentage of them who will be able to make a carless life work directly depends on how much we prioritized development near, and directly on top of our transit system.

The more we build on top of our transit stations, the more people we can accommodate.

The removal of ONE transit oriented development, completely removes the opportunity for a group of people, since you have removed an entire portion of the housing supply of a type that CAN NOT be easily replaced.

Quote:
Again, only if the transit GOES where people need it to. From Brookhaven, transit can reasonably get you to three places, Midtown, Downtown, and the airport. People will drive to Buckhead, it's right there. There's no real transit to Perimeter from Brookhaven. There's no real transit to Cumberland from Brookhaven. There's no real transit to Emory and Decatur from Brookhaven.
So give people who will be commuting to those places that opportunity to live on top of a transit station so they don't have to drive.

Quote:
Fine in theory, but this is the real world. If I could snap my fingers and add density and transit, I'd do it, but again, this is the real world. The transit HAS to be there first, otherwise, you're just adding to road congestion.
But you CAN build density, and as it adds to the road congestion, more and more people will make the choice to use alternatives, leading to an increase of walking, biking, and even raising demand for transit.

In the real world, people will complain no matter which order you go in. Just look at how many people angrily complain about how the streetcar 'goes nowhere' and is thus a waste.

You and I know that these things take time, but the order is not so set in stone.

Quote:
NOT IF THEY ARE STILL DRIVING TO MOST OF THE PLACES! Why is this concept so hard to understand? Seriously, tell my what you're missing, why it doesn't seem to make sense, what else can I provide to help you understand reality?
You are assuming that 100% of the people who move to the TOD will drive 100% of the time to 100% of the places they need to go.

That is absolutely ridiculous, and not at all supported by any sense of reality.

Let me say this again. There are a limited number of sites in the metro where we can build TODs. That means that there are a limited number of people who can use them. There is a set number of people who will move here in the coming decades. If we remove one of the TODs, we are COMPLETLY removing a portion of the people who could have used it.

Even if only a small percentage of the people who live in the TOD do so without a car, that is a larger percentage than who would be able to do so without the TOD.

What are you not understanding about 1 in 10 people taking transit being better than 0 in 10 taking transit?


Quote:
You're talking broadly about the Metro again. We're focused here only on Brookhaven. The fact is, not building this, won't affect the Metro substantially, you say it yourself, 5 million people, this development at 1000 (not even that?) is .02% of the Metro area. That's TINY! But the negative effect on Brookhaven of building this is HUGE! Why is this hard to understand? Metro Atlanta does not live and die on one development, Brookhaven can.
Every chance we have to bring people off the road, in aggregate, we should take. Every chance we have to pull people out of their cars, we should take. That is the only way that we, as a metro, will be able to handle this growth in any kind of sane, or sustainable way.

Brookhaven will not die from one more development. I dare say they won't die from many more developments.

Brookhaven will keep going. It will keep moving. Even if traffic gets worse, people will live with it, not move there in the first place, or find somewhere else to live. The market will find an equalizing point that isn't dependent on NIMBYism, or hyperbole over traffic. Seriously, things will be just fine.


In the mean time those 1000 people won't even get the chance to live without cars, nor would the additional 8000 people who would get the chance from spin-off developments. Brookhaven wouldn't get tax revenue from those people, or from the businesses that come with them.

That's 9000 more people who now must add to the daily drive.

What about all the people who could have worked in those mixed-use developments, and could have commuted by train, but now need to find work elsewhere?


Brookhaven is a piece to the aggregate, they may not 'feel' like much, but they represent the loss of someone's option.

And now that someone has no choice but to drive.
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:11 AM
 
29,247 posts, read 26,183,299 times
Reputation: 10208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Golfer View Post
So whether or not MARTA is a good product, you think we should just pile on top of it in hopes more people ride it. And in doing so would make it a better product? What????

The reality is (you seem to like that phrase) is that MARTA sucks. Throwing up some office and apartments next to it does not make it better. NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL RIDE IT. How about we poll the people in the Lindbergh apartments/office and see if they ride marta to/from work. What do you think the response will be?

Fix MARTA first and then maybe you'll have a point. Until then one can dream that Brookhaven would lease the land from MARTA and make it a park.
You raise a great point. Putting apartments next to a transit station doesn't mean people will ride it. I'm sure the vast majority of those folks will continue to drive for most of their needs.

Show me a developer in the ATL who's ready to build apartments without parking. They know people want to drive.
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