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Old 09-10-2015, 02:37 PM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
Reputation: 1536

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Schools all over the city are equally funded, cq.

I've posted these numbers in detail in the past. The same is true with class size, faculty experience, etc.
Go to schools in the SE and SW quadrants of the city. Not the Jackson Cluster in SE Atlanta, but the South Atlanta cluster. In addition, go to clusters in the SW quadrant. Compare those schools to Grady and North Atlanta clusters. On paper, you might think funding is equal, therefore resources are equal. Go to any of the schools, and you will see this is not reality. The access to resources in these schools, including intellectual resources, is way below what you see in schools in the wealthier areas of the city. If you haven't physically gone to the school, talked to the students, talked to teachers and administrators, and talked to the parents, your numbers on paper mean nothing.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:41 PM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
https://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/o...prev_order=dsc

Last year, Atlanta Public Schools spent $13530.26 per full time equivalent (FTE) student, more money than every other county/district system except for 3 systems: Taliaferro County, Baker County, and Green County. Those 3 county systems are all at least 44% African American and off the Georgia piedmont region. Cobb County, on the other hand, spent $7908.52 per FTE, less than 3/5 of APS, and has much better student outcomes. At a statewide level, Utah spends less than Cobb County per pupil and has significantly better student outcomes.

Can we dispense with the notion that it's a lack of money that's holding our students back?
I didn't say money, I said resources. Resources don't always = money. You are correct, APS spends A LOT of money on their students. On paper, it might also look like money is equally divided, therefore everybody should have equal resources. However, principals currently are NOT given flexibility with their budgets. Therefore, they aren't given the opportunity to spend that money they are given on what they feel is best for their students. Pre-itemized school budgets mean that students are not getting equal resources - the resources they get might be the same, but not what the students in poverty stricken areas need to succeed. The budgets cater to different types of schools, and different types of students. A budget without flexibility is like No Child Left Behind - if you treat every student as if they are all exactly the same type of learner, from the same demographic, from the same neighborhood, you WILL fail. The same goes for resources.

It amazes me how people don't think beyond what they see on paper. That doesn't just go for schools - that goes for everything. What you see on the surface, from your outsider perspective, doesn't always portray what happens in reality. Again, talk to the students, parents, and employees, and the stories will paint a different picture than what you see on paper. Hopefully the new-ish superintendent will address these issues of disparity.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:48 PM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Well I don't want to jump on an alarmist band wagon an say everyone must go to college.

I'm not overly shocked or worried over this as most people still don't go to (or need to go to) college for our society to function.

But I'm still worried in some ways.

-We need to teach our society to see the value in people who don't go to college for jobs that don't really require it. Often college graduates are valued, not by need but simply as someone who showed the achievement. It is a rather expensive way to simply prove oneself. This might mean we might need to rethink other ways for people to prove themselves for particular career ambitions. We need a way for those that don't go to college to still strive for achievment and mark it.

-If we send students to a college preparatory degree program, we are still failing to have them achieve within that program... whether or not they ever go to college. In other words, while they might not all need to go on to college, we still should get success why they are in the k-12 program. The goal isn't to put them in college, but to keep their math, reasoning, logic, language, and art skills to a point of readiness. Those are all skills to be used in the world outside of college too.

-Perhaps it is time we start de-emphasizing college preparatory programs for all in the final years of high school. This isn't to we shouldn't stop or not care about student achievement though or de-emphasize math and reading skills. Rather it is accepting not all kids need to go to college and we should place value technical education and technical preparation too. There are real world skills in health technology, building, and other industries that do not require a college degree but can pay the bills too. I wouldn't underestimate how much money a skilled welder can bring home. In some industries it would shock people.
Yes, good points. Not all students are made for college, and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people love mechanics, or art, or plumbing, or any other hands-on "blue-collar" job. If that's what you love, nobody should look down on you for doing that, rather than going to college.

All I would add is that on your last point, we also should not TRACK students. We can't say, you don't have the brains to go to college, so we're putting you in this technical program. Students and their families should be given equal opportunities, and through those opportunities decide what is best for them. Tracking students from elementary school (which we currently do) doesn't give them equal opportunity and creates a sub-class, since students told they are failures, will become failures.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Ono Island, Orange Beach, AL
10,733 posts, read 13,275,291 times
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Mediocrity is not a desirable goal for anyone.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:03 PM
bu2
 
23,872 posts, read 14,652,785 times
Reputation: 12648
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
I didn't say money, I said resources. Resources don't always = money. You are correct, APS spends A LOT of money on their students. On paper, it might also look like money is equally divided, therefore everybody should have equal resources. However, principals currently are NOT given flexibility with their budgets. Therefore, they aren't given the opportunity to spend that money they are given on what they feel is best for their students. Pre-itemized school budgets mean that students are not getting equal resources - the resources they get might be the same, but not what the students in poverty stricken areas need to succeed. The budgets cater to different types of schools, and different types of students. A budget without flexibility is like No Child Left Behind - if you treat every student as if they are all exactly the same type of learner, from the same demographic, from the same neighborhood, you WILL fail. The same goes for resources.

It amazes me how people don't think beyond what they see on paper. That doesn't just go for schools - that goes for everything. What you see on the surface, from your outsider perspective, doesn't always portray what happens in reality. Again, talk to the students, parents, and employees, and the stories will paint a different picture than what you see on paper. Hopefully the new-ish superintendent will address these issues of disparity.
The poor schools get far MORE $ per student than the others because they get federal money. Now maybe all the HSs in Atlanta qualify under Title I, but that's not true for the elementaries. They released the $ per school in DeKalb a few years back and the southside elementary schools were all getting 11-12k per student while the non-Title I northside schools were getting 7.5-8k per student.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:09 PM
bu2
 
23,872 posts, read 14,652,785 times
Reputation: 12648
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
Yes, good points. Not all students are made for college, and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people love mechanics, or art, or plumbing, or any other hands-on "blue-collar" job. If that's what you love, nobody should look down on you for doing that, rather than going to college.

All I would add is that on your last point, we also should not TRACK students. We can't say, you don't have the brains to go to college, so we're putting you in this technical program. Students and their families should be given equal opportunities, and through those opportunities decide what is best for them. Tracking students from elementary school (which we currently do) doesn't give them equal opportunity and creates a sub-class, since students told they are failures, will become failures.
Tracking allows teaching at their speed with other learners at their speed. You are kind of saying the opposite of your previous post. Fact is that different students do need different things. Now you shouldn't be tracked "for life." In my child's elementary, they split reading and math by ability, but did pre-tests several times a year when they switched topics to put them in the track they best fit into for that particular topic. Tracking is a win-win for everyone. The good students don't get slowed down and the weaker students don't have it go too fast for them.

And everyone shouldn't be in a college prep "track" in high school. That's not the right fit for everyone.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:44 PM
 
87 posts, read 106,506 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCATL View Post
I didn't say money, I said resources. Resources don't always = money. You are correct, APS spends A LOT of money on their students. On paper, it might also look like money is equally divided, therefore everybody should have equal resources. However, principals currently are NOT given flexibility with their budgets. Therefore, they aren't given the opportunity to spend that money they are given on what they feel is best for their students. Pre-itemized school budgets mean that students are not getting equal resources - the resources they get might be the same, but not what the students in poverty stricken areas need to succeed. The budgets cater to different types of schools, and different types of students. A budget without flexibility is like No Child Left Behind - if you treat every student as if they are all exactly the same type of learner, from the same demographic, from the same neighborhood, you WILL fail. The same goes for resources.

It amazes me how people don't think beyond what they see on paper. That doesn't just go for schools - that goes for everything. What you see on the surface, from your outsider perspective, doesn't always portray what happens in reality. Again, talk to the students, parents, and employees, and the stories will paint a different picture than what you see on paper. Hopefully the new-ish superintendent will address these issues of disparity.
Where are their hands tied? Give me concrete examples where public school administrators, at a systemic level, aren't being given the flexibility to spend money how they see fit. Otherwise, I'll write it off as incompetence/corruption in a big city bureaucracy rather than a mushy argument about "lack of resources".

There are plenty of resources. Lots of school systems make do with much better outcomes for a lot less money. Just because they're squandering resources doesn't mean there is a lack of them. Money has not been an issue in US public education for a very long time. There's truckloads of money at every level. Every single level.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:28 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
The poor schools get far MORE $ per student than the others because they get federal money. Now maybe all the HSs in Atlanta qualify under Title I, but that's not true for the elementaries. They released the $ per school in DeKalb a few years back and the southside elementary schools were all getting 11-12k per student while the non-Title I northside schools were getting 7.5-8k per student.
Reading and comprehension can be a b*tch, huh? I specifically said in my post resources does not equal money. There are other types of resources, those that money CAN buy, and those that money can't buy. For those that money can't by, school admins often have their hands tied with what they are allowed to buy, even if they know what is best for their students.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Tracking allows teaching at their speed with other learners at their speed. You are kind of saying the opposite of your previous post. Fact is that different students do need different things. Now you shouldn't be tracked "for life." In my child's elementary, they split reading and math by ability, but did pre-tests several times a year when they switched topics to put them in the track they best fit into for that particular topic. Tracking is a win-win for everyone. The good students don't get slowed down and the weaker students don't have it go too fast for them.

And everyone shouldn't be in a college prep "track" in high school. That's not the right fit for everyone.
This quote pretty much sums up my feelings about tracking:

"Do students differ in talents and achievement? They do. But when those observed differences are reinforced by track placement and grouping practices, and children then internalize those differences, learning opportunities become limited for all but the elite student. The talents of late bloomers go undiscovered, and the rewards of hard work and diligent study are never realized."

The source is here, if you want to read more:

What Tracking Is and How to Start Dismantling It

I agree that different students are capable of different things (and do need different things), but I liken it to situations with poverty. You throw a bunch of low-income people into a single building (the projects), and you're really not helping anybody. You're not helping the surrounding area, you're surrounding desperation with more desperation (aka - crime), and you're not giving them the opportunity to work their way out of the situation (others will argue this, but multiple studies show concentrated poverty is a bad thing. I think it is the same in education - you put those students deemed "low achievers" with other "low achievers", and then tell them that they are low-achievers, it's hard for them to rise above that. Students need different intervention levels throughout their school career, but most students are put on a single track in elementary school, and can't get away from that in any following grades. It is the nature of the beast. So, no, tracking is not a win-win for everybody. It's only a win for those students who were deemed worthy of high academic achievement. There are better solutions out there, school systems just need to adopt them.

I agree with you that not everybody should be on a college prep track. My argument is that there should not be tracking, but rather a more equitable alternative that provides all students the opportunity to decide if college is right for them or not. Currently, that is decided for them early in elementary school.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:50 AM
 
Location: City of Atlanta
1,478 posts, read 1,714,685 times
Reputation: 1536
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Where are their hands tied? Give me concrete examples where public school administrators, at a systemic level, aren't being given the flexibility to spend money how they see fit. Otherwise, I'll write it off as incompetence/corruption in a big city bureaucracy rather than a mushy argument about "lack of resources".

There are plenty of resources. Lots of school systems make do with much better outcomes for a lot less money. Just because they're squandering resources doesn't mean there is a lack of them. Money has not been an issue in US public education for a very long time. There's truckloads of money at every level. Every single level.
Do your own research. It is common knowledge that individual schools have very little flexibility with their budgets, it isn't something that needs to be "proven". It is well-known reality. Why do you think Charter schools pop up? They are given public school money, but are allowed freedom with how they spend their budgets. Hell, half of the advertisements that try to illustrate that benefits of APS turning into a charter district is that it gives principals the opportunity to spend money in their schools in a way that they believe, as people IN THE SCHOOLS, will best help their students, teachers, and communities.

There is a lot of money in APS, but throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it. Money needs to be spent wisely, and it hasn't been. The new superintendent seems to be making positive strides to correct this issue. This is an example of the problem in America's education system today - people like you, who have very little knowledge about education beyond what they see at their kids school, or on the news, try to tell leaders in education what to do, or that their methods to fix a problem are wrong. Money money money is all I ever hear. I've said this before, but next time you go to the doctor, tell him he is wrong about his diagnosis. He's not an expert, right? You are - so show him who's boss, and don't take those pills. See what happens.
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