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Old 09-09-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,555 posts, read 8,619,721 times
Reputation: 5052

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
We are talking about 1%, it is a small amount to pay for the huge investment returns we see from transit.
No need to argue with me - I'm happy paying 1%. I just believe most folks are not. I don't need convincing. Bought into long ago.
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Old 09-09-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,555 posts, read 8,619,721 times
Reputation: 5052
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
AnsleyPark - We wouldn't need taxes to support transit if we didn't spend so much more in taxes on it main competitor (roads). Either support no government subsidies of transportation or accept the hypocrisy of being anti-transit.
See my above reply to cq. We all understand your thoughts on user fee based funding. And while I may disagree with your position, I certainly respect your position.
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Old 09-09-2015, 02:37 PM
 
1,949 posts, read 1,639,295 times
Reputation: 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
Arjay, I think it is about taxes. I think many voters feel they shouldn't foot the bill for a limited transit system when they and most of their family and friends will not have reasonable access to it.
That was especially true when the first couple of times they voted on MARTA. Gridlock was a city thing, and only the city had enough density for transit to make sense. Much less of an excuse now.
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Old 09-09-2015, 03:02 PM
 
7,688 posts, read 9,532,497 times
Reputation: 5657
Well, I think MARTA does have at least some roots in racism, but more importantly, classism.

The problem is, it can be tough to make a reasonable case against those biases.

I remember when I first moves to Atlanta, I went to Lenox and there were hundreds of teens just walking around. Not buying anything, just walking around and mildly trying to intimidate people (yep, they were African American teens...I guess I have to mention that). But the most notable thing was just the sheer number of them. I remember asking a merchant, don't remember which one, what in the world was going on. This is one of the wealthiest areas in the country, why are there just tons of teens walking around not buying anything? The person I asked just rolled her eyes and pointed toward the MARTA station. "It all started when they opened the MARTA station," she said.

Years later when I lived in Brookhaven and shopped at the old Kroger that was once a Harris Teeter and is something else now, I was hassled for money walking in. Multiple times. Finally, I asked the manager a similar question that kind of went like, "Hey, I know this is a good part of town, why can't you keep the panhandlers out of the parking lot?" and he gave me the same answer: they come in on MARTA.

So I have to inject a bit of realism here: You can't legitimately make the argument that MARTA does not bring in a type of person that would normally not be in the area. People absolutely DO ride MARTA to panhandle in wealthier areas, hang out in wealthier areas, and maybe....I don't know....commit crimes in wealthier areas. It's just a fact and you can't deny it.

Now, if you want to argue that these people have every right to be in whatever neighborhood they want, you can make that point. If you want to say that the good far outweighs the bad, you can make that point as well. And you'd really be right on both counts.

However, the question before us is not whether the good of MARTA outweighs the bad, or whether everyone has the right to mobility. The question is why it is controversial. There are many reasons, most already listed, but a large part of it is that MARTA brings people to areas that were previously protected by the fact that one had to arrange private transportation to get there, or ride a complex series of buses.

So, right or wrong....the bottom line is that Lenox wouldn't be invaded by African American teens on weekends if it weren't for MARTA. That Kroger in Brookhaven probably wouldn't have ever had a panhandler in the parking lot if it wasn't across the street from a MARTA station.

And sadly, these are the things that a lot of people see when they hear the word MARTA.

But those of us that see a fast line past gridlock in the mornings and afternoons are starting to outweigh them, as the recent poll numbers indicate. But there's the honest answer.
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Old 09-09-2015, 04:07 PM
 
188 posts, read 121,811 times
Reputation: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
If that is the case, then why do we have so many charitable organizations?
Because people like to choose where there money goes. I donate generously to charities of my choosing. I don't like seeing my money pissed away by decades of incompetent management.
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Old 09-09-2015, 04:36 PM
 
789 posts, read 640,641 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
Well, I think MARTA does have at least some roots in racism, but more importantly, classism.

The problem is, it can be tough to make a reasonable case against those biases.

I remember when I first moves to Atlanta, I went to Lenox and there were hundreds of teens just walking around. Not buying anything, just walking around and mildly trying to intimidate people (yep, they were African American teens...I guess I have to mention that). But the most notable thing was just the sheer number of them. I remember asking a merchant, don't remember which one, what in the world was going on. This is one of the wealthiest areas in the country, why are there just tons of teens walking around not buying anything? The person I asked just rolled her eyes and pointed toward the MARTA station. "It all started when they opened the MARTA station," she said.

Years later when I lived in Brookhaven and shopped at the old Kroger that was once a Harris Teeter and is something else now, I was hassled for money walking in. Multiple times. Finally, I asked the manager a similar question that kind of went like, "Hey, I know this is a good part of town, why can't you keep the panhandlers out of the parking lot?" and he gave me the same answer: they come in on MARTA.

So I have to inject a bit of realism here: You can't legitimately make the argument that MARTA does not bring in a type of person that would normally not be in the area. People absolutely DO ride MARTA to panhandle in wealthier areas, hang out in wealthier areas, and maybe....I don't know....commit crimes in wealthier areas. It's just a fact and you can't deny it.

Now, if you want to argue that these people have every right to be in whatever neighborhood they want, you can make that point. If you want to say that the good far outweighs the bad, you can make that point as well. And you'd really be right on both counts.

However, the question before us is not whether the good of MARTA outweighs the bad, or whether everyone has the right to mobility. The question is why it is controversial. There are many reasons, most already listed, but a large part of it is that MARTA brings people to areas that were previously protected by the fact that one had to arrange private transportation to get there, or ride a complex series of buses.

So, right or wrong....the bottom line is that Lenox wouldn't be invaded by African American teens on weekends if it weren't for MARTA. That Kroger in Brookhaven probably wouldn't have ever had a panhandler in the parking lot if it wasn't across the street from a MARTA station.

And sadly, these are the things that a lot of people see when they hear the word MARTA.

But those of us that see a fast line past gridlock in the mornings and afternoons are starting to outweigh them, as the recent poll numbers indicate. But there's the honest answer.
What's wrong with panhandlers? I don't mind them I enjoy giving them money.
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:03 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,797 posts, read 11,729,302 times
Reputation: 5394
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLTJL View Post
Now, if you want to argue that these people have every right to be in whatever neighborhood they want, you can make that point. If you want to say that the good far outweighs the bad, you can make that point as well. And you'd really be right on both counts.
While I am no fan of panhandlers, they mostly do have the right to go and hang out in wealthier areas. It happens in every city around the world. The idea that this is a problem, or should be avoided, is exactly why MARTA doesn't go in to Cobb or Gwinnett county.
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:07 PM
bu2
 
8,969 posts, read 5,665,308 times
Reputation: 3535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry X View Post
What's wrong with panhandlers? I don't mind them I enjoy giving them money.
In case you aren't just being funny, many are frauds.

I was at one corner and on 5 days 4 different people worked the corner.
Day 1-Old bearded white vet with his vet card
Day 2-Heavily muscled black guy who looked like he worked out 6 hours a day
Day 3-scroungy looking 30is black guy
Day 4-vet again
Day 5-skinny 30 something white woman who looked like she had a hard life

You wondered if there was a Panhandle pimp who dropped them off and took a commission.
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Old 09-09-2015, 06:25 PM
 
985 posts, read 1,430,289 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
While I am no fan of panhandlers, they mostly do have the right to go and hang out in wealthier areas. It happens in every city around the world. The idea that this is a problem, or should be avoided, is exactly why MARTA doesn't go in to Cobb or Gwinnett county.
I agree, wealth should not buy you a wall to keep poverty out. It's this type of attitude that discourages mobility. Transportation is a major driver in one's upward mobility. MARTA is designated as inefficient and poor, which is by design, see the numerous arguments about GDOT funding allocation.

The negative opinions are derived from classism. which in American is deeply routed in racism. Think of all the inefficient rural roads built, does anyone see it as welfare, no because when white people give white people money it's called charity, give it minorities it's called handouts.
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Old 09-09-2015, 06:45 PM
bu2
 
8,969 posts, read 5,665,308 times
Reputation: 3535
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemanarmy View Post
I agree, wealth should not buy you a wall to keep poverty out. It's this type of attitude that discourages mobility. Transportation is a major driver in one's upward mobility. MARTA is designated as inefficient and poor, which is by design, see the numerous arguments about GDOT funding allocation.

The negative opinions are derived from classism. which in American is deeply routed in racism. Think of all the inefficient rural roads built, does anyone see it as welfare, no because when white people give white people money it's called charity, give it minorities it's called handouts.
Panhandling is illegal in a number of places. Its just not enforced in all of them. You should be free from being harassed by panhandlers. There's a difference between a panhandler and a poor person.
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