U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-16-2015, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,366,816 times
Reputation: 4971

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
There was a transit expert quoted in the AJC a few years back and said Atlanta was next to last of the top 20 metros in its arterial network. He didn't mention #20, but Boston was the only one I could think of.

It took me 20 minutes to go a block and a half over near the High not too long ago. Those things happen way too often now. Imagine with twice the density.
With 2X the density, hopefully more people would be walking, cycling, or taking transit. We are not going to design our cities so people living in distance communities can drive to these areas easy. Those drivers care nothing about the areas they drive thru, except for less traffic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-16-2015, 01:42 PM
 
28,028 posts, read 25,146,281 times
Reputation: 16685
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
With 2X the density, hopefully more people would be walking, cycling, or taking transit. We are not going to design our cities so people living in distance communities can drive to these areas easy. Those drivers care nothing about the areas they drive thru, except for less traffic.
And there will still be even more driving; that's just the reality. That's going to be the primary form of travel for the forseeable future and we have to take that into account when planning for the future. That doesn't mean you cater exclusively to the automobile, but a robust arterial network is a must and it doesn't have to come at the expense of more transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2015, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,366,816 times
Reputation: 4971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
And there will still be even more driving; that's just the reality. That's going to be the primary form of travel for the forseeable future and we have to take that into account when planning for the future. That doesn't mean you cater exclusively to the automobile, but a robust arterial network is a must and it doesn't have to come at the expense of more transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, etc.
CoA streets do not have the ROW to widen roads, so there will have to be alternatives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2015, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,462 posts, read 7,321,504 times
Reputation: 4206
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
In this regard, Atlanta is most like Boston. Narrow intown streets with congestion.
Its a good point.

For me Boston is quickly becoming a city for both comparisons and contrasts to Atlanta.

What I find interesting is outside of the central areas Boston is more sprawled with less population density than Atlanta.

Inside its central areas Boston is far more dense, compared to Atlanta.

The political borders are also irregular. The City of Boston actually has some less dense suburban areas, whereas adjacent cities in close proximity of the city center are dense too.

Boston has a 2.9 relative to our 2.0 in lane mile density. I suspect largely from density of streets in their urban residential neighborhoods is much higher and much lower further away from town.

A few advantages Boston has had is history (the age of growth) and wealth... it is actually a very wealthy city. Another advantage and disadvantage is growth... it is a low growth city. Their land use policies around their region have actually hindered growth and pushed up prices.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2015, 09:23 PM
bu2
 
9,077 posts, read 5,777,217 times
Reputation: 3598
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
CoA streets do not have the ROW to widen roads, so there will have to be alternatives.
There is always ROW available. Its just a question of whether you want to pay for it.

If you don't, then you have to limit density except in sections of the city where you have capacity. Its ridiculous to assume 100% of new residents will not drive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 06:11 AM
 
4,286 posts, read 4,164,736 times
Reputation: 3263
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
It isn't a contradiction in the least bit.

As density increases you need to have more parallel routes that act as arterial roads and additional collectors in between. The more density goes up, the more roads need to be same area that Atlanta doesn't have in large parts of what we call 'intown' today. I'm not even getting into things, like power, water, sewer, etc...

The reason for this is most of Atlanta was built as suburbs of a much smaller city and eventually kept growing from there.

It also isn't about long-distance commutes, it is often about providing for the immediate needs of those area. High amount of people drive a high amount of traffic, no matter how much transit you have. Good, supplies, taxis, ubers, and even people in their cars will follow. At the end of the day the streets and arterials are the life blood that make any development happen.

Parts of intown Atlanta are seeing this now. There are streets that are congested largely from more local traffic as areas are redeveloped and that redevelopment is really only happening in key areas along aging industrial and commercial. It's a smaller amount of the city's land that many realize.

I never found that report with a really good infographic I alluded to earlier. It is actually killing me I can't find it, but I did find something else.

There was a report that examined many things, one of which was the density of lane-miles within the region. Out of the top 20 cities by population in the country Atlanta was by far the lowest with a 2.0 per square mile. Most others were in the 3.0 to 4.3 range.

Los Angeles was a standout with a 7.6 at the far end of the spectrum and there were a handful of other 2.x cities, Minneapolis, Boston, Tampa, and St Louis (2.4, 2.9, 2.3, and 2.8 respectively).

Atlanta also still fell in the average range with the number of lane miles per 1000 people.

Our roads spread outwards a good bit, but they are also frequently narrower and much further spread out between different alignments.

So the point I'm getting at is there are a few people here who have taken this roads vs transit debate in a simple-minded aggressive direction and have actually forgotten about what real wide-spread dense urban residential neighborhoods are like on the ground. The Florence example brought up earlier is unrealistic and extreme for historical and economic reasons, but nonetheless Florence actually has a great amount of Lane miles and streets in that city in a given area. The difference is one has tons of alignments spaced very close together and the other has most of the eggs dumped into a few alignments in a given single area, but more that sprawl around.

A slightly more realistic comparison with Chicago will show many more lane miles in its urban residential neighborhoods. Those neighborhoods need them to be what they are.

They need more streets and arterials to handle them. The few really wide mega roads we have in the region, most notably the connector, are really doing more to make up for the lack of infrastructure elsewhere
That is a contradiction cause density is population in a smaller area it's building upward. Your more focus on building outward... decreasing the necessity of traveling is part of ARC transportation plans, Right now Metro Atlanta has built a scenario that increase the necessity of traveling by building car depended environments. After the 50's the baby boomers generation went full in sprawl not thinking about the future, now the elder population is increasing, and people are aging in neighborhoods that aren't walkable.


That's inaccurate grids are mainly a North American thing, It's only one way of urbanization European cities in general are not grided.

But I don't think you get what I saying, Because Metro Atlanta doesn't have a large grid or parallel roads, Metro Atlanta is never going to have continuous density this was never my point, or Anything ARC has suggested.

Metro Atlanta instead has to focus on key areas through out the metro that could become denser, and connects these areas. Read The PDF below but make sure you read the sections below they thought about all of this.

PLAN 2040 REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT GUIDE PDF

Region Core
Regional Centers
Regional Town Centers
Town Centers
Redevelopment Corridors
Station Communities
Major Retail Districts
Redevelopment Corridors
Regional Employment
Corridors
Village Centers
Developing Suburbs

PLAN 2040 REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT MAP PDF


Where light rail in Cobb and Gwinnett counties are planed is not a coincidence. As I said many of the CID's Cumberland, Cobb town center, Perimeter Center, Areas along North Fulton CID, Gwinnett village, and Gwinnett place. All have plans for densifying. The idea is bring density to areas of higher employment. These are more progressive and welling to redevelop. "Regional Centers" A lot of their plans involve retro fitting their suburbs edge city environments into more urbanize areas and yes they are looking at developing parallel roads, cityscape and etc.

North Fulton CID

http://northfultoncid.com/files/medi...4-bnfsd-v2.pdf

Changes that improve quality of life in North Fulton County -- A Vision for the Future

Map/Location of current infrastructure improvement projects of the North Fulton CID (GA 400 Corridor, Milton, Alpharetta, Roswell)



Gwinnett village

Gwinnett Village CID - RedevelopmentGwinnett Village

TRANSPORTATION - Gwinnett VillageGwinnett Village


Town Center CID

Planning | TCACID

http://tcacid.com/pdfs/TCA_FinalReport_Dec2005.pdf



Gwinnett place CID

http://www.gwinnettplacecid.com/imag.../lcifinal3.pdf

Plans and Studies for Gwinnett Place


Perimeter center CID

http://www.perimetercid.org/projects.html

http://www.perimetercid.org/annualreport/


Cumberland CID

INITIATIVES - CCID

ROADS - CCID


central atlanta progress serves as Downtown Atlanta CID


Plans & Initiatives


midtown alliance serves as Midtown Atlanta CID

Development Tour

Buckhead CID

Overview | Buckhead Community Improvement District


http://theregionsplan.atlantaregiona...-framework.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,366,816 times
Reputation: 4971
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
There is always ROW available. Its just a question of whether you want to pay for it.

If you don't, then you have to limit density except in sections of the city where you have capacity. Its ridiculous to assume 100% of new residents will not drive.
I never said 100% of new residents would not drive, but the hope is that when people move to compact, walkable, transit areas like this that they will take advantage of the alternative transportation infrastructure.
Please show me, on a Fulton County Tax Record Map, where there is available ROW to add more lanes, install at least 4' wide sidewalks, with street trees, and preserve the building. This is where traffic engineers start narrowing the lanes to 10' wide.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:23 AM
 
28,028 posts, read 25,146,281 times
Reputation: 16685
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
CoA streets do not have the ROW to widen roads, so there will have to be alternatives.
I'm talking regionally, not just about CoA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,352 posts, read 16,366,816 times
Reputation: 4971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
I'm talking regionally, not just about CoA.
I am specifically referring to intown development. Most roads OTP were laid out with wide enough ROW for future lane expansions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2015, 08:58 AM
bu2
 
9,077 posts, read 5,777,217 times
Reputation: 3598
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
I never said 100% of new residents would not drive, but the hope is that when people move to compact, walkable, transit areas like this that they will take advantage of the alternative transportation infrastructure.
Please show me, on a Fulton County Tax Record Map, where there is available ROW to add more lanes, install at least 4' wide sidewalks, with street trees, and preserve the building. This is where traffic engineers start narrowing the lanes to 10' wide.
You do it just like every other city in the country does it. People on CD here don't seem to understand it.

You have to condemn property, which may or may not have a structure. In some places its more feasible than others.

Making the argument that we shouldn't do it (for any number of reasons) is fair. Making the argument that it is politically or financially difficult is fair. Making the argument that it can't be done is simply wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top