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Is it though? I mean must suburbanites have traditionally been very concerned (and succeeded) with making the city suburban enough, even to the point of demolishing entire parts of the city to build their highways.
Also, I like to see good planning go into the entire region.
He has a point, freeways were rammed thru neighborhoods to give commuters in the suburbs easy access to jobs in the core. At the time the freeway system was planned in Atlanta, downtown still had the majority of jobs.
A football stadium used for 12-14 football events a year and maybe another 20 large events a year is not conducive for mixed-use development. A baseball stadium used 81+ times a year is. Jerry World was designed to be it's own stand alone facility.
Perhaps some of y'all don't understand the first thing about sports, but there is a real difference between the two stadium types.
Well shucks, Globe Life Park down the street has baseball 81 times/yr. Where's it's thriving restaurant district? Why can't I get my dry cleaning or a teeth cleaning on the corner? The best synergy it has is the extra parking from Arlington Convention Center and AT&T Stadium.
I'd venture a football stadium that has almost all events on weekends is more conducive to multi-use than baseball. The peak traffic patterns wouldn't affect M-F commercial buildings as much and can leverage some of the infrastructure while providing the baseline traffic to support restaurants since it's virtually impossible to support restaurants even on 81 days of traffic.
Umm no yall seem be detach from reality that actually over 100,000 people in 20 Sq mi around stadium in Arlington are already there.
If the area around the stadiums in Arlington is your idea of what successful stadium development looks like, then I agree Cumberland can be "successful" with the stadium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
The Stadium and Mix use development both can exist in the Cumberland without each other, putting them together doesn't not conflict with each other.
The mixed use component is a good idea, but that doesn't mean that the stadium is a good idea. A big negative plus a small positive is still a negative. The mixed use area will not be enough to off-set the negatives of the stadium. In fact the stadium probably hurts that mixed use development in the long run. In a few years it is easy to see that mixed-use area becoming a lonely place with mostly closed shops on non-game days.
1. Yes, stadiums do exist in urban environments. Usually they go up in existing dense areas or there's such a dramatic lack of land you wind up building up to it. Most of them do not naturally attract development and virtually all attempts to force the issue result in underwhelming retail/commercial space (see the Marlins).
2. Agenda isn't the question. How you decided to get to a big parking lot isn't the problem...it's the fact that stadiums fare better w/ huge swaths of parking b/c that's what the primary patrons care about on gameday. Season ticket holders still have regular jobs and I don't think they'll be able to create the Braves equivalent of Disneyworld on 60 acres.
3. Yes, it's planned b/c they were realistic about what makes a stadium enjoyable...shuffling tens of thousands of people in and out of the event quickly/safely and being ok w/ a whole lot of parking lots. Dropping in office space next to an event space doesn't mean it will succeed and that others will be rushing to do so. Atlanta has plenty of office space that doesn't require trip planning around baseball season and some of it even has real access to transit. Cobb is investing in some crackpot trying to build a city at the bottom of the ocean and has already spent all the projected tax earnings.
Okay again....
Building a mix use development in suburbs in not a revolutionary thing.
Stadiums in urban environment is not revolutionary thing, in fact most are.
I think because metro Atlanta is so central on Atlanta. The idea of suburban areas having amenities and become urban seem abstract. Where place like DFW where the region is multi polar. Creating large mix use development in suburban areas is not a big deal. North Arlington isn't urban because is was never planned to be, But places like Las Colinas which is an sprawl edge city, began building lots of new urban mix use projects out through the district. Cumberland can easily follow this trend. Until you understand building mix use development anywhere is not a big deal. You can not understand how irreverent whether it's adjacent to a stadium or not.
And that problem yall making a big issue that a mix use develop is being planned near a stadium. All this mean Cumberland needs to increase parking and transportation that fit's the needs of that area and their situation.
I don't think any single stadium can create a thriving atmosphere unless it has events year-round. A baseball stadium is idle October-April, a hand-egg stadium is idle January-September, a basketball stadium is idle ~April-October. Other events like concerts and such can only fill in so much. If all three are close to each other, there's only a short time when they're all going to be idle. That's why I would have liked the new sphincter stadium to have been abandoned, and the Braves move to that south site. Then you would have had all of Atlanta's sports right there where businesses would see enough value to open since they would have year-round customers and the other development would likely follow.
If the area around the stadiums in Arlington is your idea of what successful stadium development looks like, then I agree Cumberland can be "successful" with the stadium.
They never had the same situation or goals. Successful to these two different regions are two different things.
But yall obsession of comparing apples to oranges is not going to help make yall point.
Quote:
The mixed use component is a good idea, but that doesn't mean that the stadium is a good idea. A big negative plus a small positive is still a negative. The mixed use area will not be enough to off-set the negatives of the stadium. In fact the stadium probably hurts that mixed use development in the long run. In a few years it is easy to see that mixed-use area becoming a lonely place with mostly closed shops on non-game days.
Listen.......... Areas around Stadiums are that way because they planned it that way.
You can not use stadiums areas that are plans to be spacious as evidence for stadium areas that are planned something different.
I'm arguing against a paradox. In your minded the stadium area in Arlington is "hurt" when the immediate area around the stadiums is park land with lakes, Theirs a large parking lot because that's was planned in that area, To East is Warehouse district on what planet does the stadium suppose to effect the warehouse district that area was not meant to be redeveloped. To West is large grided denser section of homes than anything in suburb metro Atlanta. Is the area successful yes very successful for what Arlington was trying to accomplish.
What does this have do with Cumberland? nothing, Arlington has park land surround the stadiums and it's adjusted to Warehouse district. Neither has anything to do with Cumberland situation.
Cumberland is a edge city, already a place of retail of office space adding more is not radical idea. Whether or not the mix use develop does well will have nothing to do with the stadium but rather can Cumberland add more office and retail.
Yall are comparing apple to oranges comparing to different places in different situations with different objectives, As said I said yall are using a inaccurate description of Arlington........ to marginalize Cumberland.
North Arlington is generally a thriving area, the only negative is for it's population non transit is ridiculous. but even in this situation Arlington is different because it's a grid.
If Cumberland bulit mix use development adjusted to the stadium it has nothing to do with the stadium but rather is the demand there or not, can they add more office and retail.
Saying will it be successful or not because it's next to a stadium makes no sense. Building this works no different than Buckhead Atlanta or any other mix use development in Metro Atlanta, or the rest of the country for that matter.
The only issue is parking and transits, I think they need to build a parking deck. It will sacrifice some land but for the overall project it would be worth it.
North Arlington is generally a thriving area, the only negative is for it's population non transit is ridiculous. but even in this situation Arlington is different because it's a grid.
If Cumberland bulit mix use development adjusted to the stadium it has nothing to do with the stadium but rather is the demand there or not, can they add more office and retail.
Saying will it be successful or not because it's next to a stadium makes no sense. Building this works no different than Buckhead Atlanta or any other mix use development in Metro Atlanta, or the rest of the country for that matter.
The only issue is parking and transits, I think they need to build a parking deck. It will sacrifice some land but for the overall project it would be worth it.
They are building decks. The plans call for 6,000 spaces mostly in decks onsite w/ the assumption (which has been proven wrong) that nearby businesses would welcome the stadium traffic to use their lots. There was also the unaccounted for 1,000 ft long double decker bridge that was to haul people from Galleria.
They have 2 choices...either build bigger decks or buy more land. The 3rd option is to buy out the buildings nearby but that doesn't seem to tenable either if they're too broke to build a bridge.
Based on their argument for leaving Turner Field, they were short 5,000 spaces (mostly covered by private lots nearby). Their new stadium is short even further on parking and there aren't any private lots in walking distance (yet). Using this metric, they need ~5,300 more spaces to match the target for Turner Field. They need 1,120 just to match Turner Field's pathetic capacity.
So based on a $15k buildout cost per space (for decks):
Just to match Turner Field:
1,120 * $15,000 = $16.8M
To hit their goal parking:
5,300 * $15,000 = $79.5M
So they're woefully short of parking. If they just level the entire lot and go all parking, they might get close to 9,000 spaces which is still less than they need officially and contradict any multi-use plans. That bridge they were out begging the state for was their hail mary to solve a very big problem they have on their hands.
My argument is that upping the parking onsite would be the death knell of any multi-use space and the ability for Tim Lee to deliver on his promise of a year round retail/entertainment mecca. The fact that it'll more resemble Arlington's parking lot Great Plains is based on its appearance and outside of any concerted plan.
chiatldal - I know Tim Lee is planning for rainbows and unicorns all around the stadium but it is not going to happen. That is why so many are entertained by this train wreck. They have been calling it from the start. And it will continue to unfold for the next couple decades.
It is really a no-win scenario for Cobb. The demand for game day parking will eat up land and money somewhere in Cumberland and push out other businesses. They can build the bridge and spread it to the other side of 285, they can take up more of the mixed-use development, or spread it to land around the stadium. And unless they are building a 20,000 space deck and going to charge $5 or less per car, the last option will be happening to some extent regardless. The profit margin to be made off land near the stadium is now going to be highest as gravel parking lots.
2. "I wonder if pilots sometimes mistake the lots for a DFW runway. "
On the plains of North Texas, Jerryworld, I mean the Cowboys' stadium, really stands out. Makes Globe Life Park look pretty tiny by comparison.
Also, since Arlington, Texas practically has zero transit, and since Cowboys Stadium is over half a mile from the nearest freeway, I cannot imagine the mess that is their gameday traffic.
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