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Old 09-23-2015, 06:34 PM
 
6 posts, read 3,643 times
Reputation: 27

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Boris and still in the south raise some good points. First, Boris is correct that officers generally no longer have the authority to accept fine payments (or bail bond amounts) on the side of the road in Georgia. With 159 counties and 400 + municipalities there may be somewhere that practice still exists, but it basically disappeared in the last 30 years as people were often uncomfortable with the prospect of handing cash to the officer at the time of the stop. This used to be the common practice throughout Georgia before the norm (and computer ability) existed of using licenses as bonds. In fact, up to 15 years ago officers took the physical license of someone charged with a traffic offense (if in the compact) and let the driver go and use the citation as a license.

Still in the south quotes the APD spokesperson, whose quote is entirely accurate. If any officer in Georgia believes the cited person will not appear in court, they have the discretion to take that person and require the posting of a bond to ensure their appearance, but this is for any driver from anywhere. Georgia drivers, or those in the agreement, who give an officer reason to believe they won't appear in court (may say I'm not going to that court, or throw the ticket out the window, etc) face a likely custodial arrest with the requirement to post a bond.

Current guidance from the Georgia Department of Public Safety, and other regulatory agencies, is that drivers from states not in the agreement (including foreign countries) should be required to post a bond to guarantee their appearance in court and to not release the driver on citation. Now I don't know APD's direct policy but I'd imagine their written policy follows the guidance of the State of Georgia. Spokespersons for police agencies often don't make clear to journalists, or journalists don't understand what they are hearing, agency policies. It is likely that their policy, and Georgia guidance, states that their is a presumption that drivers from non agreement areas will not appear in court absent a bond. This would be a reasonable presumption, as years of experience has likely shown that persons who face no practical consequence from failing to appear in court will not.

I do know that boris is correct, if there is any question, the officer will cover his but and do what the policy requires (or seems to). Especially in an agency like APD, which has 2000 officers, which likely severely restricts the abilities of patrol officers to make judgment calls. No officer wants to be investigated by internal affairs over a traffic offense for not following policy.

All in all this is a mess and makes Atlanta look silly. Once people understand how and why these things happen, it looks less silly but silly stories sell news.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:36 PM
 
28,146 posts, read 24,671,942 times
Reputation: 9534
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillinthesouth View Post
Yeah, maybe caffeine withdrawal caused the fender bender!

Seriously, though, the Atlanta P.D.'s handling of this was ridiculously heavy-handed.

Maybe the Atlanta P.D. will apologize and refund the bond that he shouldn't have had to pay. Uh, right...
Just give the guy a ticket. If he doesn't pay, what's the worst that could happen? He joins the zillions of other people running around with unpaid traffic tickets?

It is total nonsense to handcuff somebody and haul them off to jail in these circumstances. We don't even know the guy was guilty. Totally bush league.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
975 posts, read 808,874 times
Reputation: 925
[Responding to Bogart]

I realize that the police officer can't accept payment at the scene, but if he would have simply told the driver that he had to bring him to the station per policy (to pay the necessary fines), and didn't handcuff him and leave his nephew at the side of the road, controversy would not have ensued. The officer botched things. He doesn't deserve to be defended.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,802 posts, read 2,156,804 times
Reputation: 5195
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnetar View Post
The United States' militant police culture is getting to the point that I don't feel like I can ask my colleagues from other countries to visit the U.S. in good conscience, because of what they may be subjected to by airport security, Customs, or the police once they're here. I'm one of the most flag-waving patriotic yankee doodle dandies ever, so coming to that realization has been incredibly sad for me.
Hospitality has been lacking for a VERY long time..So given LE is the Fund collector for some states..(especially Red ones) or those "Sundowner States' who target anyone who doesn't live in that town etc..I guess..this is just one example...SMH

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Yeah, I saw this on the news earlier and was disgusted by the draconian way this guy was treated.

All this for fender bender, and he promptly paid for everything. But held because the cop considered him a 'flight risk,' and leaving his nephew basically stranded on the side of the road? Give me a break.

This particular APD officer needs a crash-course in common sense training.

And I can guarantee that this will receive wall to wall coverage in the Canadian media.
You"re way WRONG...Hate to tell you..Canadian Press don't bother..ya know why?? Because it's Old news and has been going on for far too long..So why bother repeating the same OLD Inhospitality Many Canadians's experience south of 49th Parallel???

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedimenjerry View Post
"Kanuick paid his fine and court costs but says he may never come back to Atlanta."

This is exactly what I hate about this. It's unnecessary and paints us in a terrible light. Now we do look like some podunk town in the south that is weary of foreigners.
It's NOT the Citizen's ..but the Political machine directing this..and Canadian's realize that...So until voter's vote in hospitable Politicians..It's never going to change...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSD610 View Post
Following the law has nothing to do with being hospitable, it is the law however it is not as dramatic as you and te media want it to appear to be.
Following what law??? Canada and USA are receptacle....what happens down there gets processed up here ticket-wise..NO need to arrest anybody...Bet this guys son sure got an education!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
The cop that he dealt with didn't need to escalate things to this level, unless his hands were tied by policy. If he was following policy, it needs to be looked at and re-examined ASAP. This guy was obviously not some low-life, and we can hardly lay claim to being a cosmopolitan City with this type of thing occurring.

Canada is Georgia's largest trade partner, and the social and economic ties run deep. The Canadian press is very sensationalistic (much like the U.K), and will have a field day with this. This is not good, period.
Yep...what does that matter?? Obviously, no perks nor benefits afforded...Show the $$$$ before you can go on your way...Other than creating bad memories for those affected directly..It actually affirms previously unproven accusations heard prior..but gets validated...Not a great way to welcome outsiders and their economical input to the economy ( unless it goes into the Government Coffers directly!!)
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:18 PM
 
6 posts, read 3,643 times
Reputation: 27
Lyndarn, I agree that the incident is embarrassing to the city and things should change to avoid the situation in the future. Perhaps this will provide the impetus for the Canadian provinces and the State of Georgia to negotiate a meaningful reciprocity agreement. Another poster provided information that such agreements exist between certain provinces and states. Those agreements do not exist right now, nor when this incident occurred. Canada is important to Georgia, and there are a number of Canadians who travel through Georgia, an agreement would keep this incident from recurring.

Finally, the $78 fine is almost certainly not enough money to cover the costs of the officers at scene and at the jail (salary and benefits) and transportation to the jail. It isn't a fine issue in this case (though certainly sometimes it is) but the interests of the State of Georgia in having an accused criminal (traffic violations are crimes in Georgia, this one a misdemeanor) appear in court. An agreement would remove the absurd outcome in this case where a person who broke a minor law is arrested, inconveniencing the driver and his nephew significantly and spending more money on the arrest and transportation than the fine provides. In all the outcome is absurd but the process that led to it is understandable, but may not be desirable.

Now still in the south, I agree that if APD policy allowed what you and I both suggested for the officer to have the driver follow him to an office and post bond would resolve the problem under current law/guidance then he needs criticism (unless his supervisor instructed him otherwise, then the supervisor should get some heat). If it is APDs policy then it needs to be addressed.

I suspect this problem lies with supervision or policies that constrain officers from using judgment to reasonably solve the problem. I doubt, though it is possible, that the citing officer wanted to take this driver to jail in handcuffs and leave the nephew on the side of the road. If for no other reason than it is a pain in the neck and takes a lot of time to take someone to jail.

Really though all of this would have been avoided if Georgia and the various provinces had an agreement and the unfortunate driver could have just been released on a citation. Hopefully this will occur in the near future.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
975 posts, read 808,874 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogart Double Dawg View Post
Lyndarn, I agree that the incident is embarrassing to the city and things should change to avoid the situation in the future. Perhaps this will provide the impetus for the Canadian provinces and the State of Georgia to negotiate a meaningful reciprocity agreement. Another poster provided information that such agreements exist between certain provinces and states. Those agreements do not exist right now, nor when this incident occurred. Canada is important to Georgia, and there are a number of Canadians who travel through Georgia, an agreement would keep this incident from recurring.

Finally, the $78 fine is almost certainly not enough money to cover the costs of the officers at scene and at the jail (salary and benefits) and transportation to the jail. It isn't a fine issue in this case (though certainly sometimes it is) but the interests of the State of Georgia in having an accused criminal (traffic violations are crimes in Georgia, this one a misdemeanor) appear in court. An agreement would remove the absurd outcome in this case where a person who broke a minor law is arrested, inconveniencing the driver and his nephew significantly and spending more money on the arrest and transportation than the fine provides. In all the outcome is absurd but the process that led to it is understandable, but may not be desirable.

Now still in the south, I agree that if APD policy allowed what you and I both suggested for the officer to have the driver follow him to an office and post bond would resolve the problem under current law/guidance then he needs criticism (unless his supervisor instructed him otherwise, then the supervisor should get some heat). If it is APDs policy then it needs to be addressed.

I suspect this problem lies with supervision or policies that constrain officers from using judgment to reasonably solve the problem. I doubt, though it is possible, that the citing officer wanted to take this driver to jail in handcuffs and leave the nephew on the side of the road. If for no other reason than it is a pain in the neck and takes a lot of time to take someone to jail.

Really though all of this would have been avoided if Georgia and the various provinces had an agreement and the unfortunate driver could have just been released on a citation. Hopefully this will occur in the near future.
Excellent points overall. Still, we're talking about a fender bender, which makes this talk about reciprocal arrangements between the two countries a bit absurd to me. The driver had a valid license, insurance, etc... I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about these matters as you, but my hunch is that the officer mishandled this badly.
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:52 PM
 
6 posts, read 3,643 times
Reputation: 27
Still in the south, I choose to put the blame on APD supervision or policy because I know that large police agencies typically limit the ability of officers to make judgment calls where the law is clear on what it seems to require. But I can certainly see why you may place the blame on the officer. Of course, I am also know how difficult and long booking someone into the Atlanta Jail can take and how spending time in there (even booking someone) is unpleasant for everyone. In my experience, officers would rather not have to spend the time taking someone to jail or being in that unpleasant environment.

Now, it may be time to examine whether these types of offenses should be decriminalized in Georgia like in a few states. The major drawback to this is that the accused will typically lose several rights, including those to an attorney if they can't afford one, the right to a trial by a jury, and that the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. I am not sure that we should make such a change, but until we do these are still criminal offenses in Georgia and require appropriate criminal processes.
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,852 posts, read 2,649,875 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillinthesouth View Post
[Responding to Bogart]

I realize that the police officer can't accept payment at the scene, but if he would have simply told the driver that he had to bring him to the station per policy (to pay the necessary fines), and didn't handcuff him and leave his nephew at the side of the road, controversy would not have ensued. The officer botched things. He doesn't deserve to be defended.
Exactly! Nobody is suggesting that the officer should be accepting payment at the scene. The officer won't be accepting payment at any time because that's not part of the job.

However, it's not necessary to go to court in Atlanta or Marietta and some other cities in the metro to pay a ticket. You can pay it online. You go to court to fight a ticket or because missed the deadline to have paid it before going to court.

Now, maybe having so many systems work different ways may be half the problem. Take Roswell for example, it can take up to seven days to even get the ticket in the system. You cannot pay it online but you can walk in and pay it.

And another thing about Georgia's reciprocal agreements with other states - if they don't have one then they create a temp GA driver's license in the person's name. So while it may not be an immediate inconvenience or even known to the driver from elsewhere, it is suspended if they don't pay the ticket. This means that when the person tries to renew the license in their home state or whatever else would cause their license to become an issue, it shows up that they have a suspended GA driver's license. It's underhanded but effective.

I think there are enough work-arounds to not haul someone into jail for some bs.
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,264,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Reminds me of another case awhile back involving a British professor.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What every Brit should know about jaywalking

Always interesting to see threads like this though.

Shows a real major difference between how people perceive police treatment as it is applied to one group of people...versus the perception of police treatment as it is applied to another group of people.

At least as far as America is concern.

Oh well.

And the cosmic ballet goes on...
Well the OP stinks... That is a bit extreme and I think Georgia should consider joining the 45 instate reciprocity company and a newer licensing agreement that includes limited recirprocity with Canada and Mexico, which would really help eliminate sill things like this.



but I just felt a need to brush on this article, since it was mentioned. I remember this story when it happened from how ridiculous it sounded. I looked into a bit beyond what this BBC magazine article decided to mention.

The British Professor didn't just jaywalk, it was at an event with crowd control and there was a pedestrian plan in operation. A uniformed police officer instructed him not to cross and he he did after acknowledging the officer.

The officer approached him to cite him for jaywalking. He got argumentative, refused to provide ID, and demanded the officer's credentials (which he got). He was trying to argue the man wasn't an officer for wearing an officer's leather type jacket, which he was not use to. Although, a bit of common sense, this man was directing traffic and pedestrians and most were obeying him.

The officer than was unable to properly give him a citation. He failed to comply with the officer, fought him off, and that is why it took 5 police officers.

So at least in this case.... I must stick up for Atlanta. They didn't tackle him with 5 cops, just for jaywalking. It was the total lack of cooperation and resisting arrest, but they only wanted to cite him for jaywalking when he ignored an officer telling him he was breaking the law. The problem wasn't APD, the problem was a privileged not showing an ounce of respect for the foreign city he was in.

I travel international for work a large amount. I would never act like that in a foreign country, rather I accept that I am a visitor, I try to act more conservatively knowing I don't know the law where I am very well, and I obey the instructions of any officers anywhere I am. I'm sorry, but it is like travel 101.


Now did things escalate from a very minor offense... yes, but I can't really fault the APD in this case once I heard the full story.
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:46 PM
 
6,612 posts, read 6,546,255 times
Reputation: 4045
Some people want to make an embarrassing situation into a unique Atlanta thing. This could have happened anywhere and doesn't seem to be all that uncommon. Jaywalking is dangerous for pedestrians and motorists and can have deadly results, so it's not all that minor of an offense. I feel like they could have given him a ticket and a warning, but we really don't know exactly what happened - we only have one side of the story.

I was yelled out by a police officer years ago for jaywalking in Chicago, but I complied and went back to the same side of the street and found a crosswalk. To me, if a police officer tells someone to do something they should pay attention - not keep going.
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