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Old 02-05-2008, 02:19 PM
 
Location: West Cobb (formerly Vinings)
3,615 posts, read 7,762,620 times
Reputation: 830

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Quote:
Originally Posted by plessthanpointohfive View Post
Some of us pay the same chunk of change you did and we're still of the mindset that we SHOULD allow the government to assist the poor.
I agree. Personally, if you "win the game" and strike billions, it's time for a reset and you should give most of it back. I don't have an issue with some people having $10 million or so, and believe that the ability to become relatively wealthy is a good motivator (like a credit system), but I think there should be some cap since people having hundreds of millions is ridiculous and I consider it stealing and not rightfully theirs. I'd rather the US be almost completely middle class and have no poor or no extremely rich people. I learned in one of my classes that if the income of the US were distributed equally, almost everyone would make an upper middle class salary. Furthermore, I don't think it's a billionaire's right to decide how to distribute money that they have stolen in a sense from hard-working people.

Additionally, if individuals or companies originally based in the US move enough of their assets out of the US, they shouldn't be able to do business in the US.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:28 AM
JPD
 
12,138 posts, read 18,259,477 times
Reputation: 8004
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Many people are "less fortunate" because of the conscious choices that they make, and plenty of people like me pay a HUGE share of our incomes for all of the things that government does. To some, no matter how much someone like me pays in taxes, it will never be "ENOUGH" to them. To some, the only acceptable solution would be to confiscate wealth and distribute to those who are "less fortunate" to achieve some kind of socialist equality.

I'm not saying you or everyone believes this, but plenty do, and some believe to varying degrees. Success is looked at as bad, while lack of success is excused and treated as some happenstance that individuals had no control over. Not everyone can be successful, but everyone can make the effort. If you drop out of school, have kids at 16 years old, become an addict, or whatever your lack of fortune is caused by, it doesn't fall on me to make it all better.
How much less do you think you'd pay in taxes if every single government program that helps the "less fortunate" were eliminated?

$10 per year, tops.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:43 AM
 
2,642 posts, read 8,247,462 times
Reputation: 588
That's right because the bulk of our taxes goes to military spending and social security are two biggies: Where Do Our Tax Dollars Go?, Revised 5/15/07

Most of your taxes are NOT going towards programs to help the less fortunate - no matter if it's their fault they're in that situation or not...
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:51 AM
 
5,110 posts, read 7,126,245 times
Reputation: 3116
Quote:
Many people are "less fortunate" because of the conscious choices that they make, and plenty of people like me pay a HUGE share of our incomes for all of the things that government does. To some, no matter how much someone like me pays in taxes, it will never be "ENOUGH" to them. To some, the only acceptable solution would be to confiscate wealth and distribute to those who are "less fortunate" to achieve some kind of socialist equality.
No. Again let's go back to reality.

As Eisenhower stated 40+ years ago, there's a huge military industrial complex - it's welfare and for some currently, it's war profiteering.

Meanwhile the taxes are subsidizing corporations and giving them (and wealthy individuals) vast tax loopholes.



That's right to them, it's never enough. More More More.
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Old 03-11-2008, 02:07 PM
l12
 
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis
160 posts, read 316,536 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Well, I agree that Pres. Bush and the prior Republican Congresses have done a poor job of restraining spending. The only mitigating factor is the war, but even given that, they spend like drunk sailors on leave. Having said all that, the Democrats are worse, and I would almost always take a Republican over a Democrat. At least the Republican will usually try and hold taxes and defend the nation.
The Republican will hold down taxes AND spend like a drunken sailor: resulting in a huge debt that will be the downfall of this nation someday. The Democrats spend but they PAY for it, they balance the budget. They pay for it raising taxes only for the very richest people, making over $200,000 per year after deductibles (i.e. if you have 5 kids it will be different).
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Is it fair that someone who's parents didn't care about them, who dropped out of school and had a kid at 16 years old should be more entitled to my money because of the poor choices they made? Personal responsibility and hard work has no more place in this country it seems. It's all about what can the government give me.
First of all, where does 'your money' come from? It comes from other people, customers, and workers. This country and everyone in it is better off having more educated and productive people as customers and workers in the economy.

It's not that person's fault that they had parents who didn't care about them and made bad choices when they were just children!

The democrats are not looking to hand everyone a nice car and home and american dream on a silver platter here! Just the most basic necessities for anyone to even have a chance to be successful in life!

Many people are hard workers and good people and still cannot afford healthcare or good education for their children, and their children will grow up in the same situation, a vicious cycle that only increases the number of poor people and increases crime, costing us much more money in the long run. Whereas if we fix the problem now, we will all be better off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
EDIT: Oh, and BTW, I don't own a hummer or a mansion, and I have 3 kids to put through college, starting in 4 years, so yeah, I need that "extra 10,000 dollars". if you're so generous then you pony up your own money, but I think 45 large to the feds and quite a few bills to the state is enough for me.
Well if your bill was $45,000 and you have 5 kids I doubt your taxes would be affected by the Democrats, as you are not really all that rich. In fact you may benefit due to better public education which would cut a HUGE university bill for you, and more affordable health insurance. Also saving money on the Chinese lessons your kids will need to survive in 50 years as the Republicans have traded them the whole nation for a loan to pay for their war.
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Old 03-11-2008, 02:12 PM
l12
 
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis
160 posts, read 316,536 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by netdragon View Post
Evangelicals, in this context, can be considered a nicer way of saying "fundamentalist" or extremist. Look for any town with a church that's bigger than a conference center and a smaller population than the number of people that can fit in the church. They are a powerhouse in the sense that they have a LOT of money (donated by large numbers of fundamentalists) and the church members will do anything the church tells them to do They will fervently try to convert you.

Evangelicalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course if all those evangelicals were smart and actually read their bibles instead of the propaganda served to them by the religious right, they would realize that Jesus was really the first Communist and would obviously be a Democrat. The entire point of Christianity is that all men are equals, 'treat thy neighbor as you would treat yourself', 'it is easier for a camel to thread the eye of a needle than a rich man to gain entry to heaven' etc.

Amazing the stupidity/hypocrisy of these people that think it is more important to seize on one tiny part of the bible saying gays are wrong or abortion is wrong all the while missing the ENTIRE MAIN POINT of Jesus which is that being RICH is wrong when others are POOR and we should all be equal and help each other first of all.
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Old 03-11-2008, 02:21 PM
l12
 
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis
160 posts, read 316,536 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Many people are "less fortunate" because of the conscious choices that they make, and plenty of people like me pay a HUGE share of our incomes for all of the things that government does. To some, no matter how much someone like me pays in taxes, it will never be "ENOUGH" to them. To some, the only acceptable solution would be to confiscate wealth and distribute to those who are "less fortunate" to achieve some kind of socialist equality.

I'm not saying you or everyone believes this, but plenty do, and some believe to varying degrees. Success is looked at as bad, while lack of success is excused and treated as some happenstance that individuals had no control over. Not everyone can be successful, but everyone can make the effort. If you drop out of school, have kids at 16 years old, become an addict, or whatever your lack of fortune is caused by, it doesn't fall on me to make it all better.
Don't let your fears of communism/socialism let you miss the reality here.

The reality is a choice between Democrats and Republicans, not libertarians and socialists. Some Democrats are communists, but they aren't very popular. Some Republicans are fascist militant dictator wannabes, they are a little more popular. In general, all the major Dems and Republicans are actually VERY centrist.

All the major candidates are very much in favor of entrepreneurship, property rights, individual liberties, and everything American. The only difference between the two sides is whether they will spend the same money to fix problems here at home or in Iraq.

Yes some people are stupid and make bad choices.

but you can't punish all the people who never had a chance in life and really are good and hard workers just because some of them will make bad choices.

Should we just not have schools because some kids will not learn anything? Should we not have hospitals because some people will smoke cigarettes? Should we not have roads or drinks because some people will drive drunk?

And it's not like welfare is a lot of money. It's not like there aren't requirements to find work or do something for the community. It's not just an easy handout so you can go and live the good life. It's barely enough to do anything. If you are on welfare you can either spend it to try and get right and make yourself a success, or if you are an addict you will spend it all in one day and be a homeless beggar the rest, those people don't last long anyway.
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Old 03-11-2008, 02:26 PM
l12
 
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis
160 posts, read 316,536 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by netdragon View Post
I learned in one of my classes that if the income of the US were distributed equally, almost everyone would make an upper middle class salary.
This is the way it is in Denmark and many european countries, and they consistently are ranked as the happiest countries in the world. Studies have shown that people are only unhappy when they make less than their neighbors, a big American problem. In Scandinavia, the garbageman makes almost as much as the doctor, so everyone is happy, everyone does a good job, everyone gets the same great education, health, and opportunities to do what they want in life.

Of course many will say this discourages growth, innovation, entrepreneurship, and it may be true. No one is suggesting that America will ever be like those places. But it should definitely try to head in that direction a little bit IMO, instead of the opposite as it has been now since Kennedy.

The other side of the spectrum are 3rd-world countries where the 10% of people are insanely rich with servants everywhere and the poor are REALLY poor and miserable. Unfortunately, the USA has become a lot more like that in the past 50 years and is still headed that way. I dare say this world is a lot worse for entrepreneurship etc. with almost everyone too poor, stressed, and uneducated to enjoy or do anything.
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:05 PM
 
180 posts, read 565,294 times
Reputation: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
Give me social liberalism coupled with fiscal conservatism and lose the religious dogma, please.
Where is this party? lol... We must find it!
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Southeast
4,301 posts, read 7,023,348 times
Reputation: 1464
I feel as if this topic has drifted quite a bit from the original discussion. Perhaps moving it to the political forum would be more appropriate?


Either way, I'd like to say the day Georgia swings blue is the day the Republicans in the state rise up, because quite frankly, they've put up with the feeling that Atlanta IS Georgia, and that the city proper has made pretty much all the decisions, as well as sucked up all the tax dollars. I don't think Georgia will swing blue, why would transplants from the Northeast keep their former political views if it did nothing but run their own state into the ground?

Also, I will go ahead and say this as well - I really hate how Conservatives have sided with Republicans. Instead of being the nicest, caring people, they've thrown support behind such a group and in turn have made people hate them. Although, no one is going to deny that the Republican areas of this country are doing the best right now, as far as economics go. It is fact that Liberal areas do in fact have higher crime rates - now whether or not that is coincidental with the massive job loss and other problems in Liberal areas, it's hard to say. Either way, I really hate to see how the two groups (Liberals and Conservatives) are too busy pointing out each others faults to really accomplish anything.
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