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Old 11-02-2015, 09:29 AM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
5,002 posts, read 3,488,040 times
Reputation: 2653

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Why would it be half?

I bet the Pershing Point Infill station alone would be more than the cost of this first Streetcar segment.
Given the amount of tunneling required, it would at least be triple the cost.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,638 posts, read 24,856,537 times
Reputation: 11205
What incentive do Atlantans have to to take transit when the city already has some of the shortest commute times?

Workers with Commute Times of 40 Minutes or Greater

Los Angeles - 486,989 (27.7%)
Chicago - 459,074 (38.2%)
Manhattan - 242,552 (29.4%)
Houston - 206,541 (19.6%)
Philadelphia - 199,193 (32.1%)
San Francisco - 135,666 (30.3%)
Dallas - 114,466 (19.6%)
Boston - 91,378 (28.0%)
Washington - 79,463 (24.4%)
Seattle - 76,184 (21.4%)
Miami - 40,717 (20.6%)
Atlanta - 34,684 (17.3%)
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
5,417 posts, read 2,741,048 times
Reputation: 2174
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
What incentive do Atlantans have to to take transit when the city already has some of the shortest commute times?

Workers with Commute Times of 40 Minutes or Greater

Los Angeles - 486,989 (27.7%)
Chicago - 459,074 (38.2%)
Manhattan - 242,552 (29.4%)
Houston - 206,541 (19.6%)
Philadelphia - 199,193 (32.1%)
San Francisco - 135,666 (30.3%)
Dallas - 114,466 (19.6%)
Boston - 91,378 (28.0%)
Washington - 79,463 (24.4%)
Seattle - 76,184 (21.4%)
Miami - 40,717 (20.6%)
Atlanta - 34,684 (17.3%)
Would you mind sourcing that? It would help to know if this study was made to include time spent in rush hour or not.

Besides that, the incentive is simply not driving. There are plenty who don't want to drive, or who can't for various reasons. The better you make your transit network, the more people who choose that. Maybe they only have a half hour commute, but that half hour is spent going only a few miles that should take a few minutes.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,638 posts, read 24,856,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Why would it be half?

I bet the Pershing Point Infill station alone would be more than the cost of this first Streetcar segment.

Of course I think we should scrap the 400/285 updates and do both.
I was just guessing. Georgia probably doesn't have unionized labor and the cost for land acquisition, I'm sure, has gotta be much, much lower.

Maryland built two infill stations for around $450 million.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
5,002 posts, read 3,488,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I was just guessing. Georgia probably doesn't have unionized labor and the cost for land acquisition, I'm sure, has gotta be much, much lower.

Maryland built two infill stations for around $450 million.
Pershing Point would require going underground, which negates any land acquisition cost savings.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:53 AM
 
9,922 posts, read 6,919,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I was just guessing. Georgia probably doesn't have unionized labor and the cost for land acquisition, I'm sure, has gotta be much, much lower.

Maryland built two infill stations for around $450 million.
Two infill stations for $450M is one for $225M. Half that is $112.5M. So even if we did get a half price infill station somehow, it still would be more than the Streetcar cost.

I think people really fail to realize how inexpensive the streetcar is to build.

A little more investment there would go a long way to getting it to a usable network in size.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,638 posts, read 24,856,537 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Would you mind sourcing that? It would help to know if this study was made to include time spent in rush hour or not.
The source is the 2014 American Community Survey 1-Year Estimate. The data is for commute times. Some of those commutes are during rush hour (likely the vast majority of them). Some are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
Besides that, the incentive is simply not driving. There are plenty who don't want to drive, or who can't for various reasons. The better you make your transit network, the more people who choose that. Maybe they only have a half hour commute, but that half hour is spent going only a few miles that should take a few minutes.
There's certainly an incentive in driving. Saving time is a big incentive. There's no evidence that expanding rail networks, particularly in more sprawling cities, reduces commute times.

This isn't an argument against expanding transit. I'm only saying that many people who already drive to work (the vast majority of Atlantans) may not find transit that enticing if they can drive to work faster. So expanding the transit network may not lead to a huge boost in the transit share.

In cities like Boston, commuters are forced into riding transit because the everyday cost of parking isn't practical for many middle class people. Atlanta's not like that.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:59 AM
 
992 posts, read 518,522 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So that short segment cost $98 million?

Instead of raising more funds for a streetcar expansion, why not raise funds for MARTA rail infill stations? An infill station in Atlanta would probably be half the cost of the most recent additions to DC's Metro system.
That would be much more expensive.

Get this thing away from the CoA bureaucracy, running around the beltline with MARTA station integration and were in business... Just give it 30 years.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,638 posts, read 24,856,537 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Two infill stations for $450M is one for $225M. Half that is $112.5M. So even if we did get a half price infill station somehow, it still would be more than the Streetcar cost.
Sure, it costs more than a short heavy rail line, but you can also build much higher densities around a heavy rail line than you can a streetcar line. I'd rather have a new subway stop than a streetcar network that just duplicates bus service.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,638 posts, read 24,856,537 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodean View Post
That would be much more expensive.
It's not going to be $200 million expensive. I'm 99% confident Georgia has little organized labor, which is a big part of the reason why NYC's new subway line is so exorbitantly expensive. The land there is also much cheaper. So if DC could build two infill stations for $450 million, then I don't see why Atlanta couldn't do it for far less.
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