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It's much more difficult for a bus because they aren't nearly as permanent in their routes. You can build next to a bus line and 5 years later the route is changed or removed.
That seems like a good thing to me. If neighborhoods and transportation patterns change, shouldn't public transit be able to modify and change accordingly?
As a matter of practicality, however, many of our major bus lines are very similar (or identical) to old streetcar lines.
While I can't speak to other cities, the major bus lines in Atlanta change very little. They are certainly not re-routed on someone's whimsy. I can't think of any cases where business centers were harmed because bus routes changed.
Atlanta is projected to triple our current population by 2050. The metro is looking at gaining 2.5 million by 2040.
That is a city density that would be slightly higher than Seattle's current density today. In November, when we as a city approved expanding our heavy rail, light rail, streetcar, and bus network, Seattle did much the same with their ST3 vote.
Seattle is a city with an amazing bus network. It has subway-style bus/light rail route. It has bus lanes. It has frequent routes using articulated buses with improved stations and stops. It has commuter buses, and BRT, and trolley buses.
Yet, even with all that, all which is being spoken of here, Seattle is STILL pushing hard to expand and grow their rail network. Streetcars, underground light-rail, and ground-level light rail are ALL on the list, which was approved by 8 points.
That's because rail offers capacity over the bus. A single streetcar can carry 72 more people than an articulated bus. If another vehicle is coupled to the first, then you can carry 144 more people than the equivalent number of articulated buses, with one less driver.
That's because rail offers scalability over the bus. When you increase the running capacity of streetcars and light rail, you do so at a much lower operating cost than doing so with buses. The maximum capacity of a streetcar line, or a light rail line, is MUCH more than that of the equivalent bus route.
That's because rail offers stability over the bus. BRT and LRT offer just about the same incentives when it comes to attracting development. That is, IF it is true, 100% grade separated right of way Bus Rapid Transit. Where the buses are not grade-separate, their ability to attract development dies, whereas a streetcar, even without dedicated lanes, does not loose this ability. Developers WANT permanent infrastructure. They WANT a tangible guarantee that this service will be there in a decade or two, and it is the right of way that shows that to developers. The growth will happen anyway, don't misunderstand me, but having fixed-guideway infrastructure is a way to manage that growth in such a way that we can support it, while maintaining mobility.
For these reasons, Seattle is looking to expand its light rail and streetcars along with its bus network, just as we are doing so here.
The reason we should do this NOW, instead of spending the equivalent money on buses, is that the time-line is long enough for planning, securing funding for, and building streetcar and light rail that we MUST plan far ahead for these routes. By the time we have built out the first few sections under MARTA's plan, we'll have already filled in a great bit. Even more so as each new section opens. By the time we finish with what we can do under the current plan, we will have likely already doubled our population in the city.
General buses, on the other hand, can be bought and implemented as NEEDED. Since they don't, themselves, concentrate development, they can be enacted as a reactionary measure to continuous growth.
By contrast, Bus Rapid Transit, improved bus corridors, and transit lanes, all require years worth of planning, studying, and securing funding as well. They can not, as much as some on this forum might believe otherwise, simply be plopped down immediately, without a few years' consideration and study, and at minimal to no cost. If nothing else, many of the corridors where bus lanes make the most sense will meet strong resistance from people who demand no lanes taken from cars, let alone general NIMBY pushback.
Without those lanes or right of way, we don't get the concentrating effect that makes streetcars and light rail so much more effective for managing the city's future growth. We don't even get the capacity benefits, or the operating savings.
So, by all means let's develop a plan for bus lanes and transit lanes within this city, as well as extended bus expansions. I would LOVE nothing more than to continue to improve our system beyond the current plans. That said, we need that IN ADDITION to the streetcars, light-rail, and all other rail expansions within the metro.
We can not do this on buses alone. That is why we are moving forward with streetcars and light rail.
That seems like a good thing to me. If neighborhoods and transportation patterns change, shouldn't public transit be able to modify and change accordingly?
The idea is that you don't WANT the neighborhoods to change so much that transportation patterns change all the time. You want to anchor, and secure your high-density, money generating parts where they are, and hold on to them for long periods of time.
Same applies for developers. They want to be somewhere where they can pay upfront, and make money over the long-term.
It's in both the city's and developers' best interests to create dense, permanent areas to generate large amounts of money over the long term.
Simple bus lines do not, at all, signal to people that this is an area of the city that is planned to have high-capacity and high-quality transit for the long-term.
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As a matter of practicality, however, many of our major bus lines are very similar (or identical) to old streetcar lines.
While I can't speak to other cities, the major bus lines in Atlanta change very little. They are certainly not re-routed on someone's whimsy. I can't think of any cases where business centers were harmed because bus routes changed.
I can think of instances where business centers were harmed, at least in part, by the removal of higher-capacity forms of transit than buses.
Besides, it isn't that removing the bus line that serves existing properties is the problem, but rather that there could be MUCH MORE buildup in that area were there something better than a bus in place. New developers who look for permanent infrastructure won't bother considering a simple bus line as something to factor into their property. A fixed-guideway form of transit, though, is a whole other thing, though.
There's no reason you can't construct permanent, fixed bus stations on corridors like Peachtree Rd between Arts Center and Brookhaven. Or on Buford Highway, or Clairmont, or Memorial, or Roswell Rd thru Sandy Springs, or Marietta St/Howell Mill. There is no way those corridors will ever not have a bus. So, might as well make it a permanent thing, that could attract some TOD, even if it's maybe a little less TOD than a heavy rail station.
First step, collect up all the MARTA signs and shelters currently in service, and re-place them as a temporary measure where the bus stations will be constructed. Spaced apart bout every 1/4 to 1/3 mile, give or take. So probably 50% less stops than currently.
Then you start pouring some concrete, laying some wires, etc. Build the bus stations basically to look exactly like those nice streetcar stops look. With a permanent presence, and a sign with a unique name for the stop (or pair of stops). And the whole thing could be nicely integrated in with the sidewalk and with surroundings, so that it looks like a really part of the road infrastructure. Then you put a couple light poles to make sure it's well-lit. And heck, maybe even a security cam.
Someday I hope people will be able to get on the Red Line train in Alpharetta, take that down to Buckhead Station, then transfer to an "A Line" or "Peachtree Line" bus line, that they can ride southbound 2 or 3 stations to a "Buckhead Village" high end bus stop. Then do some shopping and dining, ride the same line back up to the HRT, then home from there. And the whole thing is as easy to navigate and figure out as the train system is, and as easy to plan your trip and know when the next bus is arriving, and etc. And it's all part of one automated, integrated system, and it's all on one system map.
People want performance from transit, or else they're going to drive. I do not believe there is a major stigma against transit, or even against surface transit with rubber tires. I just think MARTA's current services suck, and people are discerning and logically choose their best option.
And unless the streetcar majorly, majorly improves, why wouldn't you just drive? Who wants to stand there and wait half an hour for a vehicle that you have to share with strangers, vs your own private vehicle than you can leave on demand?
There's no reason you can't construct permanent, fixed bus stations on corridors like Peachtree Rd between Arts Center and Brookhaven. Or on Buford Highway, or Clairmont, or Memorial, or Roswell Rd thru Sandy Springs, or Marietta St/Howell Mill. There is no way those corridors will ever not have a bus. So, might as well make it a permanent thing, that could attract some TOD, even if it's maybe a little less TOD than a heavy rail station.
Of course there's a reason you can't just go around building them. It's for the same reason that you can't just go around adding shelters everywhere. What's the installation cost? What's the upkeep cost? Would whoever controls the corridor allow you to install them? Would it even increase riders at all?
All of that requires time and money to study, otherwise you're just spending half a million a station, for a long corridor, without any hard justification.
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First step, collect up all the MARTA signs and shelters currently in service, and re-place them as a temporary measure where the bus stations will be constructed. Spaced apart bout every 1/4 to 1/3 mile, give or take. So probably 50% less stops than currently.
How many people do you need to do this for all 8,954 stops? How many man-hours and how much in wages? How many work orders and engineering orders and task orders need to be put in? How many public meetings and presentations and input sessions are needed to keep the city / county / neighborhood from suing you? How much money is needed to combat the inevitable suits anyway?
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Then you start pouring some concrete, laying some wires, etc. Build the bus stations basically to look exactly like those nice streetcar stops look. With a permanent presence, and a sign with a unique name for the stop (or pair of stops). And the whole thing could be nicely integrated in with the sidewalk and with surroundings, so that it looks like a really part of the road infrastructure. Then you put a couple light poles to make sure it's well-lit. And heck, maybe even a security cam.
And how much money does that cost? How much to build? How much to operate? How much to clean and maintain? How often will they be vandalized? How many people will you need for continued upkeep?
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Someday I hope people will be able to get on the Red Line train in Alpharetta, take that down to Buckhead Station, then transfer to an "A Line" or "Peachtree Line" bus line, that they can ride southbound 2 or 3 stations to a "Buckhead Village" high end bus stop. Then do some shopping and dining, ride the same line back up to the HRT, then home from there. And the whole thing is as easy to navigate and figure out as the train system is, and as easy to plan your trip and know when the next bus is arriving, and etc. And it's all part of one automated, integrated system, and it's all on one system map.
We are already getting this. That is the entire point of the Peachtree ART route, and the (previously) planned streetcar.
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People want performance from transit, or else they're going to drive. I do not believe there is a major stigma against transit, or even against surface transit with rubber tires. I just think MARTA's current services suck, and people are discerning and logically choose their best option.
As with everything, there is both. There is even stigma against transit with steel-wheel, or anything publicly financed at all, or anything at all. That's humanity for you.
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And unless the streetcar majorly, majorly improves, why wouldn't you just drive? Who wants to stand there and wait half an hour for a vehicle that you have to share with strangers, vs your own private vehicle than you can leave on demand?
It's a good thing we just paid to improve it, isn't it? Not that it takes half an hour for it to show up, or that there aren't plenty of stresses associated with driving 'your own private vehicle' that aren't there with a bus or streetcar or train otherwise.
Capacity is so far from being an issue. The streetcar does 900 rides per day. Even an expanded system has limited ridership projections.
The idea that having a ton of excess capacity is a good thing is horrible, flawed thinking.
"Oh. One day down the road we might be able to fill a streetcar to capacity... maybe... in like 30 years... if all of the previously flawed projections are correct this time."
Fourthwarden, it is your willingness to accept and defend whatever turd sandwich transportation solution your paid for politicians tell you that you should like is why we keep getting turd sandwich solutions. Stop making excuses and defending pure stupidity. Demand something better and hold up some sort of standards for taxpayer funded transportation projects.
You are he Baghdad Bob of bad transportation ideas.
Exactly. They could've easily re-worked that road to provide exclusive bus ROW along this corridor while building in all of the 'fancy' bus stop features. Doing that would've given buses a corridor through downtown that they could transit freely. We wouldn't be limited to the 1.1 mile reach of this "loop." Think of how many nice buses could've been acquired and how many miles of dedicated ROW could have been built with $100 million.
Except this was built as part of the BeltLine transit, which Streetcar/LRT was chosen as the mode. Buses on BeltLine would require wider ROW to operate in. Now that CoA residents voted 3 to 1 to increase sales tax to pay for this plan, it shows how residents feel about the future of the Streetcar network.
The idea is that you don't WANT the neighborhoods to change so much that transportation patterns change all the time. You want to anchor, and secure your high-density, money generating parts where they are, and hold on to them for long periods of time.
Same applies for developers. They want to be somewhere where they can pay upfront, and make money over the long-term.
It's in both the city's and developers' best interests to create dense, permanent areas to generate large amounts of money over the long term.
Simple bus lines do not, at all, signal to people that this is an area of the city that is planned to have high-capacity and high-quality transit for the long-term.
I can think of instances where business centers were harmed, at least in part, by the removal of higher-capacity forms of transit than buses.
Besides, it isn't that removing the bus line that serves existing properties is the problem, but rather that there could be MUCH MORE buildup in that area were there something better than a bus in place. New developers who look for permanent infrastructure won't bother considering a simple bus line as something to factor into their property. A fixed-guideway form of transit, though, is a whole other thing, though.
Yes, eg: all the neighborhood villages (Kirkwood, EAV, L5P, Oakhurst, Virginia-Highland, Morningside, Grant Park, etc.) are business centers that were served by streetcar stops. They saw decline once service stopped and continued with white flight. Only until recently have they became popular again and grew as walkable districts that attract visitors who drive, which cause parking issues and forces valuable land that could be used for more commercial or residents to instead be used for car parking.
Fourthwarden, it is your willingness to accept and defend whatever turd sandwich transportation solution your paid for politicians tell you that you should like is why we keep getting turd sandwich solutions. Stop making excuses and defending pure stupidity. Demand something better and hold up some sort of standards for taxpayer funded transportation projects.
You are he Baghdad Bob of bad transportation ideas.
How have your paid for politicians delivered on transportation promises up there in Cobb County? A polished silver "CobbLinc" bus is still the same polished turd CCT was.
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