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Sorry Sam, there will never be subways linking every corner of the city before we start needing to remove parking / highway lanes.
You already have choices to move to areas already served by transit or where you can walk. If you think we are waiting for every cul de sac in the suburbs to have a high capacity transit stop before we start removing lanes and parking you are in for disappointment.
No, these artificial distortions need to go away today. There is no switch that will be flipped one day after it is determined every single person has a less than 30 minute car free commute from their current home. No, the car favoritism needs to end now so people can start deciding for themselves. Transit will never be a real option if we keep providing artificial incentives against it.
No one is proposing removing all parking and all highways overnight (or even ever getting rid of them all). It is a slow transition that will be driven by people. And the first step is getting rid of the artificial / subsidized oversupply of parking and freeways. Those highways and parking that are worth it will remain on their own strength, the rest will have their resources / land diverted to better options by the choices of people.
Sorry Sam, there will never be subways linking every corner of the city before we start needing to remove parking / highway lanes.
You already have choices to move to areas already served by transit or where you can walk. If you think we are waiting for every cul de sac in the suburbs to have a high capacity transit stop before we start removing lanes and parking you are in for disappointment.
No, these artificial distortions need to go away today. There is no switch that will be flipped one day after it is determined every single person has a less than 30 minute car free commute from their current home. No, the car favoritism needs to end now so people can start deciding for themselves. Transit will never be a real option if we keep providing artificial incentives against it.
No one is proposing removing all parking and all highways overnight (or even ever getting rid of them all). It is a slow transition that will be driven by people. And the first step is getting rid of the artificial / subsidized oversupply of parking and freeways. Those highways and parking that are worth it will remain on their own strength, the rest will have their resources / land diverted to better options by the choices of people.
Sorry jsvh, the highways in Atlanta will always be here. I'm afraid you will keep living in disappointment. Might as well get used to it. You will never get rid of the roads until there are other ways to go.
So, you want to remove roads and highways so that people "can decide for themselves" between....what? Options that take decades to build? This is literally the most asinine thing I've ever read. You keep saying that car users are "forcing the use of cars" on others, but you repeatedly want to take away their option option in order to "force" people to figure out something else. Who exactly is trying to force their will on who here?
Provide a better way to get around, and I will use it.
•*My shortest commute recently has been from my house in Upper Westside to the Congress Center. It's a 12 minute drive. A bus involves 20 minutes of walking, and 20 minutes of riding, plus whatever waiting for the bus is involved, to get 6 miles.
• Another recent commute has been to the Civic Center. This was a 18-22 minute drive. According to Google Maps, the shortest possible bus trip is 57 minutes, including having to walk halfway across downtown between busses.
• Up to a studio in Doraville? 25 minute drive vs. a 135 minute trip involving 45 minutes of walking, three busses, and a subway.
• The new job I just booked? 20 minute car trip, or a two-hour commute with 20 minutes of walking, two busses, and a train.
There don't need to be subways to every cul-de-sac in order to change the way we travel. Less than 20% of the area inside of the Perimeter is served by a MARTA train within one mile. It's not a viable choice for most people inside the perimeter. The metro area? Only around 1.5% of it is near a train. Bus routes are haphazard and take forever. Uber is just trading a car for a car, except for parking. I work all over town, so saying "just move near work" is not a possibility.
Do not remove my way to get somewhere without offering alternative choices first.
I have received a ticket from them for an invalid reason. That is certainly one of the reasons people have a problem with them.
I would have thought that was the main complaint, but the major complaint in this thread appears to be about receiving a parking ticket without a grace period after the meter has run out of time.
Do not remove my way to get somewhere without offering alternative choices first.
Sam, again, no one is proposing getting rid of all roads. No one is taking lanes or parking spaces just to try to punish drivers or force them to do anything. But you have been overruled. We will be taking parking spaces and vehicle lanes for better uses. Your reality does not exist where it is possible to wait for some magical complete transit system connecting every cul de sac before we start taking RoW for said transit system.
If we want better walk/bike/transit/ denser living options they need dedicated RoW / space and that space will be coming from cars which are under utilizing the space.
You are responsible for finding the best way of getting around. But planners have a duty to provide the best transportation and lifestyle options to the broader public. That means finding the best use for our limited RoW which means taking lanes for alternative transportation, and building density over parking lots.
No one is trying to "force" you or anyone else into anything as a "punishment". But if you insist on living disconnected areas and driving area you will continue to find getting around tougher and tougher. Cars alone simply are not able to handle the transportation of a city our size and our limited space will be transitioned to better denser / uses because it is better for all, not to penalize drivers.
Sam, again, no one is proposing getting rid of all roads. No one is taking lanes or parking spaces just to try to punish drivers or force them to do anything. But you have been overruled. We will be taking parking spaces and vehicle lanes for better uses. Your reality does not exist where it is possible to wait for some magical complete transit system connecting every cul de sac before we start taking RoW for said transit system.
Wow...it's like you didn't even read what I wrote.
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If we want better walk/bike/transit/ denser living options they need dedicated RoW / space and that space will be coming from cars which are under utilizing the space.
I know of very few roads in this city that are under-utilized...most of them are choking.
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You are responsible for finding the best way of getting around. But planners have a duty to provide the best transportation and lifestyle options to the broader public. That means finding the best use for our limited RoW which means taking lanes for alternative transportation, and building density over parking lots.
What I think you're not understanding as my point, is that Atlanta can have massively dense development that is fully walkable, doesn't even have a road within it, and supports life for millions of people in a small core even without uprooting one single interstate or affecting the metro area as a whole. America's densest city areas including NYC, Chicago, DC, San Fran, Philadelphia, and almost every other can fit easily with the boundaries of the freeways surrounding Midtown, Druid Hills, Decatur, East Lake, etc. (connector, 85, 20, and 285). Most of them can fit in any of the pie pieces of Atlanta's interstates. But, here's the kicker: every one of them has interstate highways running within that space...we don't! Your magical fairyland of massive density without highways or big roads simply does not exist. Repeat: Your reality does not exist. Your vision of the whole area inside the Perimeter being high-density development is far from reality and will likely never, ever, ever come to fruition.
But, yet again, you are not reading what I wrote, since you tell me I'm wrong, and then repeat some of the same things: take away lanes for alternate methods of transportation. Okay. Yes, you are providing an alternative. Taking away lanes or parking without any alternatives and tell people to choose? Short-sighted and idiotic.
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No one is trying to "force" you or anyone else into anything as a "punishment". But if you insist on living disconnected areas and driving area you will continue to find getting around tougher and tougher. Cars alone simply are not able to handle the transportation of a city our size and our limited space will be transitioned to better denser / uses because it is better for all, not to penalize drivers.
Living in disconnected areas? I live exactly six miles from Midtown and Downtown. Still, the only viable option is to drive. Because someone, in their infinite wisdom, decided to take out all the streetcars decades ago, busses take forever and require multiple transfers and don't cover near the area needed, and MARTA has very limited coverage.
You're the one who keeps saying that we need to take away car options in order to have people make choices. That sounds to me like you want to force your ideals on them. Here's the thing...you don't know what choices people will make because there are no choices. I don't care if you're talking 10, 20, or 50 years from now. People aren't going to choose something else if there is nothing else to choose. If you say "we're going to take away Peachtree Industrial Boulevard and will be replacing it with a train that will connect with MARTA" then you might have my vote, even though I avoid that area like the plague. If you say "We're going to remove Peachtree Industrial Boulevard so that you can find another way to get around", you can pound sand.
See where I'm getting with this? I'm not saying you have to have a complete transit system before you take away the roads and parking, but you do need to have some sort of realistic plan that actually stands a chance of being implemented and which actually benefits the city as a whole, before you start digging up roads and parking. We could have a subway system that connects far more areas of the city before we start uprooting everything. That doesn't mean "every cul-de-sac", but it should at the very least mean "most corners of the city". Currently, we're not even close to that.
You've made it clear that automobile transportation scares the living crap out of you. Maybe you were run over as a child or something to be this adamant and this unrealistic, I don't know. But, here's the reality: no matter how much you change things, people will still drive. There is no developed area in this world that doesn't have car usage even its densest core. I would much, much rather take a light rail or MARTA to where I need to go, and not sit in traffic, but that is likely to never happen, because until every area of the city is connected in some way, the method that can take me anywhere is going to be preferred. You claim you work all over town...do you take transit everywhere? Unlikely.
Sam, you keep framing things as we have to go all or nothing. That is so wrong. That will never work. No one is going to remove entire highways over night. And no one is going to wait until we triple our subway system at a cost of $50B+ before we evaluate if taking away a lane is the best idea or approving a new highrise in Midtown.
Reality is, these things I am talking about are already happening, incrementally. No one is waiting till you are satisfied with transit plans.
Parking lots are disappearing every day. Projects are already funded and moving dirt to do road diets and more is on the way this November. And the city is better for it. This is not a "fantasy". This is happening today.
The density is happening. Growth in the city is taking off exponentially. The planning commissioners expectations of the CoA doubling in population in the next 25 years are not unreasonable.
If you prefer not to sit in traffic and take transit, you need to make those changes yourself like many other people and businesses who are relocating closer to transit. Unless you are near one the currently proposed transit lines that is up for funding this November or next year, you are mad to think anyone will even seriously propose a transit system that will serve all your needs six miles from the core in our lifetimes. You are disconnected.
No one is taking your precious car. Drivers are just no longer the only one this city is going to cater to. We are not taking lanes and parking spaces just to force people into other means. We are taking lanes / parking spaces because that space is better used other ways. Get over your victimization.
What about removing a general purpose lane on all freeways for transit-only lanes and run express, BRT services buses along the corridors to build ridership?
Sam, you keep framing things as we have to go all or nothing. That is so wrong. That will never work. No one is going to remove entire highways over night. And no one is going to wait until we triple our subway system at a cost of $50B+ before we evaluate if taking away a lane is the best idea or approving a new highrise in Midtown.
Um, I'm actually not. I'm suggesting adding to our infrastructure or replacing with new methods.
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Parking lots are disappearing every day. Projects are already funded and moving dirt to do road diets and more is on the way this November. And the city is better for it. This is not a "fantasy". This is happening today.
Parking lots are making way for new high-rises...which have levels of parking garage in them. Have any high-rises been built that have no parking? Doubt it. Pretty sure no one is going to buy a condo or put an office in an Atlanta high rise that offers no parking. I'm sure you have a list of all of them, so can you detail where parking lots are being razed for buildings with no parking?
What roads are going on road diets? I see plenty of roads having new lanes added, but I haven't seen many getting shrunk. Peachtree is losing some lanes, but it will actually improve traffic flow and make it better.
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If you prefer not to sit in traffic and take transit, you need to make those changes yourself like many other people and businesses who are relocating closer to transit.
Can you point to an affordable location that is close to transit and is not in a crappy part of town? Nowhere on the north end of MARTA is affordable. Nowhere on the south end is acceptable. Nowhere on the west end is acceptable. Nowhere on the east side is affordable. I bought a house just minutes from Midtown and downtown, not in the suburbs. it's what I could afford. I simply cannot afford to live in Buckhead or Decatur.
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Unless you are near one the currently proposed transit lines that is up for funding this November or next year, you are mad to think anyone will even seriously propose a transit system that will serve all your needs six miles from the core in our lifetimes. You are disconnected.
Oh, six miles is disconnected? Then 95% of the metro area is "disconnected". And that six miles for me is driving distance from my front door into the heart of Midtown or Downtown, not straight distance. It's six miles from Manhattan to Central Park in NYC. NYC's transit covers multiple times that distance in every direction. From the southern tip of Manhattan to the northern Bronx (15 miles), you're never more than 3/4 of a mile from a train...usually half a mile. Most of Brooklyn and Queens, way more than six miles' worth, is within a mile. DCs trains stretch for 8-15 miles in every direction. My brother in law lives 26 miles from Boston, and has a train just a couple of minutes from his house direct into the city. Chicago has trains up to sixty miles away. If six miles is "disconnected" for transit, then we're at an impasse.
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No one is taking your precious car. Drivers are just no longer the only one this city is going to cater to. We are not taking lanes and parking spaces just to force people into other means. We are taking lanes / parking spaces because that space is better used other ways. Get over your victimization.
Dude. I'm not the one feeling victimized here. How much did you whine about Freedom Parkway and dangerous non-robotic drivers? I don't think we need to build more roads. I think we need to start building transit. Lots of it. Everywhere.
Parking lots are making way for new high-rises...which have levels of parking garage in them. Have any high-rises been built that have no parking? Doubt it. Pretty sure no one is going to buy a condo or put an office in an Atlanta high rise that offers no parking. I'm sure you have a list of all of them, so can you detail where parking lots are being razed for buildings with no parking?
No there are not many being built today with no parking because of parking minimums. I can give you at least a dozen built without parking before those existed such as the William Oliver, Flat Iron. And developers are pushing (and succeding) at getting those reduced. Even in places like Peremeter.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
What roads are going on road diets? I see plenty of roads having new lanes added, but I haven't seen many getting shrunk. Peachtree is losing some lanes, but it will actually improve traffic flow and make it better.
To name a few: Broad St (from four lanes to now entierly closed to traffic), Ponce in Decatur, Ponce in front of PCM, Edgewood, Auburn, Juniper, Piedmont, W Peachtree, MLK, DeKalb Ave, and many more in the works.
And you know what? Things got better. The world didn't end.
Or even your beloved Freedom Parkway has already been scaled back. It used to have a bridge / exit ramps at boulevard that were thankfully removed:
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
Can you point to an affordable location that is close to transit and is not in a crappy part of town? Nowhere on the north end of MARTA is affordable. Nowhere on the south end is acceptable. Nowhere on the west end is acceptable. Nowhere on the east side is affordable. I bought a house just minutes from Midtown and downtown, not in the suburbs. it's what I could afford. I simply cannot afford to live in Buckhead or Decatur.
What exactly is your budget that you couldn't afford a transit connected location?
I assure you I just bought a place for significantly less per sq ft than your home a block away from Five Points. You can buy condos for less than $100k around there. Or if you prefer a SFH there are houses that cheap near West End. Or how about those $300k brand new town homes a couple block away from King Memorial MARTA and the street car.
You also need to get over your personal predjudice of "crappy neighborhoods". There are plenty great neighborhoods in the places you name. You should try spending some time there.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
Oh, six miles is disconnected? Then 95% of the metro area is "disconnected".
That is correct. If you are a mile away but the only reasonable way you can get anywhere is by car then you are disconnected. Just as being a mile off shore from Manhatten would make you disconnected from NY as you could only get there by boat.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
Dude. I'm not the one feeling victimized here. How much did you whine about Freedom Parkway and dangerous non-robotic drivers? I don't think we need to build more roads. I think we need to start building transit. Lots of it. Everywhere.
Great. You will have my support too. Just know that I expect it to have dedicated RoW which will come from vehicle travel lanes and density nodes will be priorized.
What about removing a general purpose lane on all freeways for transit-only lanes and run express, BRT services buses along the corridors to build ridership?
Or even for existing transit like the streetcar. It should be getting dedicated lanes for all of it's current route and future extentions.
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