One Year Of The Atlanta Streetcar (Cleveland: 2013, utilities, cost)

[primaltech]

Actually there are at least 2 huge things that you could do with MARTA heavy rail in the city of Atlanta, that would make a lot of sense and that I would like to see.

One, is infill stations. Krog St/Cabbagetown, Armour, Mechanicsville, and Joseph E Boone stations are among possibilities that would all be feasible. And 3 of those would be right on the Beltline, which would allow a nice connection/transfer point to the future LRT that will be encircling the Beltline as is the hopeful eventual plan.

Two, is extending both the Blue line westward by at least 1 stop (@ 285), and the Green line northwestward, which could potentially accommodate up to 3 or 4 more stops in the growing Westside area. Both of those expansions would be fully within Atlanta city limits.

And then a third idea, however remote and unlikely and expensive, would be to build a northwest branch (as was the original MARTA plan), from Arts Center to Brookwood and Northside Dr or Howell Mill. If re-routed southward it could also maybe serve Atlantic Station, which would certainly benefit from having a more direct MARTA station. As would Amtrak.

But yes, as fourthwarden said, for the most part heavy rail is out of the picture at this point for the city proper, due to many factors, the main one being extreme cost. Extensions of heavy rail in the suburbs are all we'll likely see at this point.

Surface light rail and streetcar will be the way that we will need to connect most of the rest of the neighborhoods and areas of the city to the rail backbone.

The end result of the city and the metro and the region, will likely end up as an eclectic, but appropriate mix of pretty much every mode of transit. I think that will fit Atlanta nicely, as a city that was only ever one parts big city New York/Chicago with the subway, and equal part smaller light rail-based city like Denver or Portland. Like a middle ground.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by 2Easy

Yeah. I can appreciate that non-urban people view streetcars similar to the way that they might view a monorail at Disney. And that could lead to investment. They're nostalgic. But as public transit the reality is that they are outperformed by buses in many key ways. For example entire lines can be shut down when there are fender benders between autos on their route because they can't do something simple like move to the next lane. Buses can change lanes or even change streets if they need to. Streetcars are stuck.



You say twice as many vehicles as if the costs are similar. Atlanta spent $17 million for four streetcars. That's enough money for 19 buses! And yeah they require additional operators but at least the maintenance infrastructure already exists. Additional maintenance for the streetcars has to cost much more on an annual basis than 6 or 8 buses would cost. That would more than cancel out the additional operating costs.

But like you say, no one is investing hundreds of millions because of a new bus route. So there's that even if it's not the best transit experience. But 50 more miles? Wouldn't Atlanta rather have a new MARTA line instead?

Developers see the rail as permanent, while bus routes can be changed.
The Siemens S70 streetcars have a 30 year life, CNG buses have a 15-max life. Streetcars cost more upfront, but in the long run they have lower O&M.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Actually there are at least 2 huge things that you could do with MARTA heavy rail in the city of Atlanta, that would make a lot of sense and that I would like to see.

One, is infill stations. Krog St/Cabbagetown, Armour, Mechanicsville, and Joseph E Boone stations are among possibilities that would all be feasible. And 3 of those would be right on the Beltline, which would allow a nice connection/transfer point to the future LRT that will be encircling the Beltline as is the hopeful eventual plan.

Two, is extending both the Blue line westward by at least 1 stop (@ 285), and the Green line northwestward, which could potentially accommodate up to 3 or 4 more stops in the growing Westside area. Both of those expansions would be fully within Atlanta city limits.

And then a third idea, however remote and unlikely and expensive, would be to build a northwest branch (as was the original MARTA plan), from Arts Center to Brookwood and Northside Dr or Howell Mill. If re-routed southward it could also maybe serve Atlantic Station, which would certainly benefit from having a more direct MARTA station. As would Amtrak.

But yes, as fourthwarden said, for the most part heavy rail is out of the picture at this point for the city proper, due to many factors, the main one being extreme cost. Extensions of heavy rail in the suburbs are all we'll likely see at this point.

Surface light rail and streetcar will be the way that we will need to connect most of the rest of the neighborhoods and areas of the city to the rail backbone.

The end result of the city and the metro and the region, will likely end up as an eclectic, but appropriate mix of pretty much every mode of transit. I think that will fit Atlanta nicely, as a city that was only ever one parts big city New York/Chicago with the subway, and equal part smaller light rail-based city like Denver or Portland. Like a middle ground.

I think the Krog infill is too expensive. It would require building nearly 100' above an active intermodal facility and on a curve. King Memorial and Inman Park/Renyoldstown are not at capacity and there would be no connection to Cabbagetown.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by CCATL

Well, somebody a few blocks away might beg to differ, since when they get off at 5, the streetcar will arrive for them at say 5:10. Your specific location has a stop at 5:00, but further down the line, the stop is a few minutes later. That's not to say your point is invalid, but that your solution probably isn't the best. I agree with Fourthwarden...rather than adjusting the schedule for your stop specifically, adding another car to the line during peak hours would reduce the wait time, and therefore provide you with a useful alternative to walking. 15 minutes is just too long, especially during peak times. During rush hour, 5-10 minute headways might get more people to use it.

The only point is, schedule the trains so people can catch them quickly when leaving work. Having the train arrive at the Luckie platform at 4:59 is not providing anyone a service. If they bump it back by five minutes the people working in Fairlie-Poplar can catch it, and then the people by Woodruff Park/Ga. Pacific can catch it at Woodruff a few minutes later. As it is, everyone misses the train and has to wait ten or fifteen minutes. And the reason for this is because they intentionally hold the train at the Centennial Park platform, but time the departure from that platform too early to accommodate 9-5ers.

Adding trains is always a good idea, and probably would work as a solution. But I have no reason to believe they will add trains.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by cqholt

I think the Krog infill is too expensive. It would require building nearly 100' above an active intermodal facility and on a curve. King Memorial and Inman Park/Renyoldstown are not at capacity and there would be no connection to Cabbagetown.

Maybe not a direct connection, but that is not needed. All you'd have to do is walk through the tunnel, which is something Cabbagetown residents do all the time, and actually enjoy doing. It'd be more accessible to Cabbagetown residents than many stations are to their respective rider bases. If they put an infill station there, I will use it for my daily commute.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by JPD

Maybe not a direct connection, but that is not needed. All you'd have to do is walk through the tunnel, which is something Cabbagetown residents do all the time, and actually enjoy doing. It'd be more accessible to Cabbagetown residents than many stations are to their respective rider bases. If they put an infill station there, I will use it for my daily commute.

King Memorial is accessible to Cabbagetown via bus route 21, Reynoldstown is accessible to those who can walk or bike to it. I just don't see this infil being a good ROI as it will be very expensive to build, without disrupting the current MARTA line, Hulsey Yard, and DeKalb Ave.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by cqholt

King Memorial is accessible to Cabbagetown via bus route 21, Reynoldstown is accessible to those who can walk or bike to it. I just don't see this infil being a good ROI as it will be very expensive to build, without disrupting the current MARTA line, Hulsey Yard, and DeKalb Ave.

One day, Hulsey is going to be gone, and everybody in Atlanta will wish MARTA had built this station.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by JPD

One day, Hulsey is going to be gone, and everybody in Atlanta will wish MARTA had built this station.

If MARTA will build a station on a curve, no current stations are on a curve, build it when the property is redeveloped, having the developer fund part of it.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by cqholt

If MARTA will build a station on a curve, no current stations are on a curve, build it when the property is redeveloped, having the developer fund part of it.

Personally, I think the station gap between the King Memorial and Inman Park stations is way overblown (Beltline nonwithstanding) and would not justify the huge expense of rebuilding the track viaduct in that location. As for a Hulsey redevelopment, the eastern chunk of the yard is within spitting distance of the latter station anyway.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by cqholt

If MARTA will build a station on a curve, no current stations are on a curve, build it when the property is redeveloped, having the developer fund part of it.

The Krog Street section of the MARTA line is not curved. Look at Google Earth.