i don't understand anti-transit people specifically in atlanta (sales, real estate)

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by fieldm

Title should be changed to...

"i don't understand anti-transit people specifically OTP"

well what i was going for is that i can see why someone in macon, georgia would be opposed to the construction of a new subway line in atlanta and oppose state funding. i'm talking about the people in this metro who oppose transit for this metro. it's like refusing to wear shoes.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

12 of America's Most Questionable Highway Expansion Projects - CityLab

You keep posting this idiotic report that just proves that the authors don't understand critical thinking.

The Katy area is the fastest growing part of one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and has been for the last 25 years or so. The Houston metro area grew from 5.2 million people in 2004 to 6.5 million in 2014. That's 25% with almost all the growth in the western half of the metro. It grew 500k just from 2010 to 2014.

What the report doesn't mention is that the freeway expansion decreased afternoon commute time by 18! minutes when it first opened vs. the commute time 5 years earlier before construction started. So commute time in 2014, while slower than 2011, is almost equal to 2005 despite massive growth.

And the freeway works on weekends now. It used to be horribly clogged on Saturdays. It was just insufficient for the population.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

You keep posting this idiotic report that just proves that the authors don't understand critical thinking.

The Katy area is the fastest growing part of one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and has been for the last 25 years or so. The Houston metro area grew from 5.2 million people in 2004 to 6.5 million in 2014. That's 25% with almost all the growth in the western half of the metro. It grew 500k just from 2010 to 2014.

What the report doesn't mention is that the freeway expansion decreased afternoon commute time by 18! minutes when it first opened vs. the commute time 5 years earlier before construction started. So commute time in 2014, while slower than 2011, is almost equal to 2005 despite massive growth.

And the freeway works on weekends now. It used to be horribly clogged on Saturdays. It was just insufficient for the population.

So the $3B is worth only 18 minutes, that has lasted less than 5 years? For that amount of money they could have built a rail line and it would have performed better. That is what I am getting at is TxDOT spent $3B expansion to lower commute times that LASTED ONLY 4 YEARS! I am glad $3B could be spent so it can work on 2 of the least traveled days of the week. If this were a transit project, people would be screaming about the waste of money and poor ROI.
Reducing congestion: Katy didn’t | City Observatory
This project perfectly shows induced demand and what happens when ONLY more lanes are added.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

So the $3B is worth only 18 minutes, that has lasted less than 5 years? For that amount of money they could have built a rail line and it would have performed better. That is what I am getting at is TxDOT spent $3B expansion to lower commute times that LASTED ONLY 4 YEARS! I am glad $3B could be spent so it can work on 2 of the least traveled days of the week. If this were a transit project, people would be screaming about the waste of money and poor ROI.
Reducing congestion: Katy didn’t | City Observatory
This project perfectly shows induced demand and what happens when ONLY more lanes are added.

Demand was already there. It wasn't induced.

Well based on the cost of Houston's light rail lines (which are NOT grade separated so that estimate is probably low), 3 billion would have still have left them 5 miles short of Katy. In that 3 billion that was spent, they built 4 HOT lanes which provide far better service to residents in the Katy area than a rail line would. So the people paying the toll do have an alternative that provides a faster, more reliable commute. And the express buses using the HOT lanes provide quicker, more direct service than any rail line would.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

Demand was already there. It wasn't induced.

Well based on the cost of Houston's light rail lines (which are NOT grade separated so that estimate is probably low), 3 billion would have still have left them 5 miles short of Katy. In that 3 billion that was spent, they built 4 HOT lanes which provide far better service to residents in the Katy area than a rail line would. So the people paying the toll do have an alternative that provides a faster, more reliable commute. And the express buses using the HOT lanes provide quicker, more direct service than any rail line would.

It appears they are providing no faster commutes times than they did 4 years ago, horrible ROI. At least with a rail line, they could easily add more trains at a far cheaper cost than adding lanes.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

It appears they are providing no faster commutes times than they did 4 years ago, horrible ROI. At least with a rail line, they could easily add more trains at a far cheaper cost than adding lanes.

But you don't need that capacity.

I actually read one article about a year ago that argued that buses can provide more capacity. You can use articulated buses and you can add as many as you need. Whereas, a rail line is limited by the fact that it is on a single track and can only run so close together for operational safety reasons.

[sedimenjerry]

Originally Posted by bu2

You keep posting this idiotic report that just proves that the authors don't understand critical thinking.

The Katy area is the fastest growing part of one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and has been for the last 25 years or so. The Houston metro area grew from 5.2 million people in 2004 to 6.5 million in 2014. That's 25% with almost all the growth in the western half of the metro. It grew 500k just from 2010 to 2014.

What the report doesn't mention is that the freeway expansion decreased afternoon commute time by 18! minutes when it first opened vs. the commute time 5 years earlier before construction started. So commute time in 2014, while slower than 2011, is almost equal to 2005 despite massive growth.

And the freeway works on weekends now. It used to be horribly clogged on Saturdays. It was just insufficient for the population.

Was gonna post something along these lines but you beat me to it. Houston's grown about 9% from 2010 to 2014. Highest in the top 30 largest metro areas with a lot of that growth concentrated to the west of downtown (which to me is similar to north of downtown for Atlanta, lot of wealth, old money, new money, etc). Cypress keeps growing like crazy despite 290 having no noticeable improvements and 3 lanes in either direction with a part time HOV lane. Westpark Tollway hasn't had anything done. It's still rockin the 2 lane format from when it was first built 10 years ago as far as I know.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

But you don't need that capacity.

I actually read one article about a year ago that argued that buses can provide more capacity. You can use articulated buses and you can add as many as you need. Whereas, a rail line is limited by the fact that it is on a single track and can only run so close together for operational safety reasons.

Buses need drivers, fuel, and higher maintenance than trains. Current MARTA system was setup (and maybe with updating signals, software, etc.) to run on 90 second headways. Yes, some trains require operators, but cars can be added (currently all stations are capable of 8 car lengths) to expand the capacity, have ALL TRAINS run on ATC (to achieve the 90 second headway), and rail lines can exceed the capacity of buses.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by sedimenjerry

Was gonna post something along these lines but you beat me to it. Houston's grown about 9% from 2010 to 2014. Highest in the top 30 largest metro areas with a lot of that growth concentrated to the west of downtown (which to me is similar to north of downtown for Atlanta, lot of wealth, old money, new money, etc). Cypress keeps growing like crazy despite 290 having no noticeable improvements and 3 lanes in either direction with a part time HOV lane. Westpark Tollway hasn't had anything done. It's still rockin the 2 lane format from when it was first built 10 years ago as far as I know.

Could the continued high growth be an effect of the Katy Frwy expansion project?

[sedimenjerry]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Could the continued high growth be an effect of the Katy Frwy expansion project?

Could? Possibly. I tend to not think so simply because of all the growth elsewhere in Houston. Even here in Atlanta as the economy has picked up so has traffic. Katy saw explosive growth before and after the project. It's truly impossible to say what traffic would be like on that same stretch had nothing been done. That version of the road no longer exists. Traffic times are up all over Houston (transtar has that data). Even for corridors like I 69/US 59 (Eastex Freeway) serving the less popular Humble, Atascocita and Kingwood areas. What also helps the Katy area boom is the land. Pretty flat, lot of farmland, not so much forested like The Woodlands.

I'm not shutting out the possibility that the expansion caused increased demand, I just highly doubt it based on context of the area.