Atlanta Nov 2016 Presidential Election (Forsyth, White: budget, backyard, offices)

[bUU]

Originally Posted by primaltech

What's wrong with divisive?

Divisiveness obstructs progress.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

The Frame of saying Hilary is lying for 15 mins in the tittle out weight the importance of anything actually said the video.

Once again, it's not the content, it's all the outright dishonesty that bothers me.

And it's more than any of those contradicting clips. I just get a vibe of insincerity when she speaks, on any topic. Hard to explain.

However, like I said, I'm at least confident enough that she would be a largely centrist president that wouldn't cause major international disasters, and wouldn't start reversing Obama's policies out of spite. So, I'll take that, given the options.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by bUU

Divisiveness obstructs progress.

That can't be true, since we've made so much progress over the last decade as a nation, while being deeply polarized. A lot more progress than in past decades.

Progress comes by outnumbering and outmaneuvering the anti-progress Fox News crowd, not by cowering to them in the name of some feel-good unity.

[bUU]

Originally Posted by primaltech

That can't be true, since we've made so much progress over the last decade as a nation, while being deeply polarized.

We made more progress when we weren't so polarized. Polarization hollows out the middle leaving less middle ground on which to forge progress. An obstructionist dream is government not being able to agree on anything so nothing gets done.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by bUU

An obstructionist dream is government not being able to agree on anything so nothing gets done.

I'd actually be fine with that, too, as a progressive but also libertarian. The periods of "nothing getting done", are when they actually leave us alone, and we don't get new freedoms but at least we don't lose any.

In fact that could actually be the one saving grace, if the worst happens and we get a Trump presidency. Neither party will support his ridiculous agenda items, and nothing too terrible will ever get done.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by bUU

Divisiveness obstructs progress.

Ah, but competition also creates progress. Why else do you think technology in Western Europe advanced so quickly? Lots of countries bumping heads and trying to expand.

How to tell the difference.

[bUU]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I'd actually be fine with that, too, as a progressive but also libertarian.

Sorry, but afaic "progressive" and "libertarian" are pretty close to antonyms.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by bUU

Divisiveness obstructs progress.

There is probably no person more divisive than Hillary Clinton among Republicans. Among independents, only Trump trumps Clinton.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by bUU

Sorry, but afaic "progressive" and "libertarian" are pretty close to antonyms.

Well, in my view hey're mostly the same thing. At least half of the progressive issues of modern day, are essentially just quests for more civil and individual rights and freedoms and protections thereof. Gay marriage was legalized, pot is being legalized- these are libertarian and progressive victories.

I'm not talking about the right wing libertarian viewpoint that opposes the welfare state, or any state. That is just a private version of tyranny rather than liberty. Freedom and opportunity and equality are all linked, in practice. Liberty should actually be further left than many so-called libertarian people poorly envision it.

Anyway, I'm just saying, if the government can't get anything done, that's good; since the majority of the stuff it does is usually harmful.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Well, in my view hey're mostly the same thing. At least half of the progressive issues of modern day, are essentially just quests for more civil and individual rights and freedoms and protections thereof. Gay marriage was legalized, pot is being legalized- these are libertarian and progressive victories.

I'm not talking about the right wing libertarian viewpoint that opposes the welfare state, or any state. That is just a private version of tyranny rather than liberty. Freedom and opportunity and equality are all linked, in practice. Liberty should actually be further left than many so-called libertarian people poorly envision it.

Anyway, I'm just saying, if the government can't get anything done, that's good; since the majority of the stuff it does is usually harmful.

Yes, like highways, NASA, the world's greatest fighting forces, the post office, our national parks, and a whole host of other forms of big guv'mint tier-nee.