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Ok fine Mr. Semantics. What is your idea for Brookhaven until the transit, bikes trails, and density are in place? Better?
Matt,
I'm not exactly on JSVH's side, because he has a bias against where more than 95% of our region lives and will continually need to live going into the future.
But don't let his heavy bias as a lifestyle contrarian affect you too much either.
What I don't understand about your opinion is why can't we utilize this expensive resource (ie. MARTA station) we already built in the past better?
It is near the larger roads in the area and not far from them, so road capacity upgrades are less costly and it wouldn't impact the smaller roads further away. The Peacthree corridor and the Buford Hwy corridor is where Dekalb needs to build bigger piping in place, not the leafy areas further away from the larger roads.
All of this is also in very close proximity to Buckhead.
The growth is coming one way or another ... and in the end likely in multi-faceted ways. We need to put some of it near existing resources where it make sense.
Simply stated, at this one small node... there is less that needs to be built for Buckhead new growing Buckhead commuters if we can place some here and not further away on lower impact sites.
I hope you don't mind if I continue to go with the data instead of a random internet poster's gut feeling.
Its not a gut feeling. Its daily driving. Their conclusion on Scott Street is beyond absurd. Maybe their numbers are right on the others, but it calls them into question.
And as I said, Decatur has done nothing to Scott, so none of their actions had any impact.
Also, they didn't measure the surrounding impact, so the impact on traffic cannot be defined by the "data." The data is incomplete.
At least DeKalb has a dependable source of water, even if they have difficulties getting rid of it. It Georgia were to lose big in the Supreme Court on Lake Lanier water, Gwinnet doesn't have enough to drink.
Sadly, that isn't quite incorrect.
It affects us all equally. The problem is is all parts of the region that pull from the Chattahoochee affect the discharges at the Buford dam by how much the pull out (and are permitted to pull out).
Otherwise Gwinnett only needs to build pumps on the Chattahoochee to be just like Dekalb and Fulton.
The other side to this is Gwinnett's net-use out of the Chattahochee is less, because we are going to extremes to treat most of it back into the Chattachoochee. That is the concern about inter-basin transfers. The more we treat back into the Chattachoochee in Dekalb, the lower our net-use of the river is and that is examined when it comes to discharges at the dam.
What we don't get credit for currently is how much we allow to enter the ground water supply and actually drains back into the basin naturally below ground (ie. septic tanks, leaky pipes) and water that evaporates away (ie. outdoor watering, hince watering bans....more important than just the water saved on the supply side)
What we also don't get full credit for is Gwinnett's system to put water back into the Lake. It is treated equally like it is placed into the river downstream. This matters, because it could be used to counter-act the large amounts they use to hydro-electric power during drier seasons, whereas putting it in the river can't.
I'm not exactly on JSVH's side, because he has a bias against where more than 95% of our region lives and will continually need to live going into the future.
But don't let his heavy bias as a lifestyle contrarian affect you too much either.
What I don't understand about your opinion is why can't we utilize this expensive resource (ie. MARTA station) we already built in the past better?
It is near the larger roads in the area and not far from them, so road capacity upgrades are less costly and it wouldn't impact the smaller roads further away. The Peacthree corridor and the Buford Hwy corridor is where Dekalb needs to build bigger piping in place, not the leafy areas further away from the larger roads.
All of this is also in very close proximity to Buckhead.
The growth is coming one way or another ... and in the end likely in multi-faceted ways. We need to put some of it near existing resources where it make sense.
Simply stated, at this one small node... there is less that needs to be built for Buckhead new growing Buckhead commuters if we can place some here and not further away on lower impact sites.
I don't think their concern is Peachtree or Buford Highway. Their concern is all the residential streets in the rough triangle bounded by Peachtree/Clairmont/Buford Hwy/N. Druid Hills. There is a lot of new SFH construction in that area. They've added speed bumps, which tells you they are concerned about cut-through traffic. Someone moving to Gwinnett County isn't likely to cut through on Redding and Dresden. Someone at Dresden and Peachtree will.
It affects us all equally. The problem is is all parts of the region that pull from the Chattahoochee affect the discharges at the Buford dam by how much the pull out (and are permitted to pull out).
Otherwise Gwinnett only needs to build pumps on the Chattahoochee to be just like Dekalb and Fulton.
The other side to this is Gwinnett's net-use out of the Chattahochee is less, because we are going to extremes to treat most of it back into the Chattachoochee. That is the concern about inter-basin transfers. The more we treat back into the Chattachoochee in Dekalb, the lower our net-use of the river is and that is examined when it comes to discharges at the dam.
What we don't get credit for currently is how much we allow to enter the ground water supply and actually drains back into the basin naturally below ground (ie. septic tanks, leaky pipes) and water that evaporates away (ie. outdoor watering, hince watering bans....more important than just the water saved on the supply side)
What we also don't get full credit for is Gwinnett's system to put water back into the Lake. It is treated equally like it is placed into the river downstream. This matters, because it could be used to counter-act the large amounts they use to hydro-electric power during drier seasons, whereas putting it in the river can't.
You're clearly quite knowledgeable on this. But if we suddenly have to dramatically cut back drawing water from Lake Lanier, how does that limit the areas that don't pull from Lake Lanier like Gwinnett does?
You're clearly quite knowledgeable on this. But if we suddenly have to dramatically cut back drawing water from Lake Lanier, how does that limit the areas that don't pull from Lake Lanier like Gwinnett does?
I'm no expert on this, but I do believe that FL's and AL's complaint isn't just about how much we pull from the lake, but how much or little water reaches FL and AL as a result of our use of the Hooch. So, I would imagine a ruling adverse to Georgia would cover all use along the river - lake and otherwise.
Transit already exist in Brookhaven, there is a station in the middle of their suburban business district, that will become more of a traditional town center if the TOD project moves forward. This project will help Brookhaven create an identifiable downtown area, that is not centered on a shopping center with surface parking lots (Town Brookhaven.)
But that transit is useful only if you're going south of Arts Center., somewhere along the MARTA corridor. If you're going to Buckhead, you'll drive, Perimeter, you'll drive, Northlake, you'll drive, Emory, you'll drive, Cumberland, you'll drive. The Clifton corridor will help greatly with the people going to Emory, and the 110 ART/BRT project and eventual streetcar through Buckhead to Brookhaven will help with going to Buckhead, but until transit is greatly expanded, most of the people that will live in this TOD, or come to the TOD for work or pleasure, will have to drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh
As an individual Brookhaven you could take my approach. But for Brookhaven as a whole, there is no interim option (and elsewhere in the metro). Either "suffer" through the build out transit, RoW going to bikes and walkers, and dense development around their existing heavy rail station or continue to see traffic and quality of life in Brookhaven degrade as more and more commuters drive long commutes through the city and have no better alternatives. Regardless, driving in the city will continue to take you longer. There is no solution to that.
You're contradicting yourself. First you say build dense development, then you say the alternative is to suffer with more congestion. Well what do you think bringing more people into Brookhaven will bring? That's my whole entire point here, there IS a solution to keeping the infrastructure from being overwhelmed, and it's to stop the continued development until the infrastructure can be brought up to spec. That's basically what I've been saying all along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
Matt,
I'm not exactly on JSVH's side, because he has a bias against where more than 95% of our region lives and will continually need to live going into the future.
But don't let his heavy bias as a lifestyle contrarian affect you too much either.
What I don't understand about your opinion is why can't we utilize this expensive resource (ie. MARTA station) we already built in the past better?
Except you really can't "better utilize" MARTA [from the frame of reference of Brookhaven] without capital improvements and more major infrastructure changes than either the city or the developer can implement.
Quote:
It is near the larger roads in the area and not far from them, so road capacity upgrades are less costly and it wouldn't impact the smaller roads further away. The Peacthree corridor and the Buford Hwy corridor is where Dekalb needs to build bigger piping in place, not the leafy areas further away from the larger roads.
Except the through roads are maxed out, adding more people won't help their congestion any.
Quote:
All of this is also in very close proximity to Buckhead.
Ironically, this is part of the problem. Brookhaven is close enough to Buckhead, that the overhead in a HRT ride one stop, is unlikely to ever outweigh just driving, even if you're destination is near that one stop. Think about it, once you're downstairs in this TOD, you need to give 2 minutes to get to the train, it's a 3 minute ride, then about 1 minute up to street level at Lenox, then at least another minute if you work right there near the southern end of Lenox Mall. So that's 7 minutes. Drive time at rush hour takes about 10. So yes, by the numbers, the train has a very slight advantage.
But if you work up near the red line station, then you'd have to go all the way to Lindbergh, then take a Red Line back up. That's easily a 20 minute trip while it's still 10-15 driving. Going to Lenox and transferring to the 110 would be about as long as rail all the way, and that still assumes your destination is near the Buckhead station.
If the 110 went to Brookhaven instead, and ran better headways, then certainly, the transit option would make a lot more sense. Even better if there was local bus service out of Lenox serving Buckhead (there's now only one shuttle, that just goes to one business/residential park). This gets even better if there's a streetcar along the 100 route at some future date.
Quote:
The growth is coming one way or another ... and in the end likely in multi-faceted ways. We need to put some of it near existing resources where it make sense.
Simply stated, at this one small node... there is less that needs to be built for Buckhead new growing Buckhead commuters if we can place some here and not further away on lower impact sites.
Actually, no, the growth doesn't have to come. Outside the through corridors, unless development is allowed to happen, then the growth can't happen.
You're contradicting yourself. First you say build dense development, then you say the alternative is to suffer with more congestion. Well what do you think bringing more people into Brookhaven will bring?
It will attract more transportation options and make it possible for existing trips shorter. You don't have to go to 0% car trips to improve your quality of life. People in that dense mixed use development right around the station will have a lot of options they will be able to walk to near by. The more options that are right at that node, the lower the % of car trips will go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
That's my whole entire point here, there IS a solution to keeping the infrastructure from being overwhelmed, and it's to stop the continued development until the infrastructure can be brought up to spec. That's basically what I've been saying all along.
If by "infrastructure" you mean roads then that is exactly what metro Atlanta has been trying for the last 60 years. It hasn't worked, it has made things worse. Not to mention, transit and density depend on each other, if you artificially hold back density, you harm transit.
Its not a gut feeling. Its daily driving. Their conclusion on Scott Street is beyond absurd. Maybe their numbers are right on the others, but it calls them into question.
And as I said, Decatur has done nothing to Scott, so none of their actions had any impact.
Also, they didn't measure the surrounding impact, so the impact on traffic cannot be defined by the "data." The data is incomplete.
So you are arguing about a piece of the data you say is irrelevant to Decatur anyways? I have no time for that. Come back with some data to support you case. Not just citing your own unsupported personal thoughts on the sources I provide.
But that transit is useful only if you're going south of Arts Center., somewhere along the MARTA corridor. If you're going to Buckhead, you'll drive, Perimeter, you'll drive, Northlake, you'll drive, Emory, you'll drive, Cumberland, you'll drive. The Clifton corridor will help greatly with the people going to Emory, and the 110 ART/BRT project and eventual streetcar through Buckhead to Brookhaven will help with going to Buckhead, but until transit is greatly expanded, most of the people that will live in this TOD, or come to the TOD for work or pleasure, will have to drive.
You're contradicting yourself. First you say build dense development, then you say the alternative is to suffer with more congestion. Well what do you think bringing more people into Brookhaven will bring? That's my whole entire point here, there IS a solution to keeping the infrastructure from being overwhelmed, and it's to stop the continued development until the infrastructure can be brought up to spec. That's basically what I've been saying all along.
Except you really can't "better utilize" MARTA [from the frame of reference of Brookhaven] without capital improvements and more major infrastructure changes than either the city or the developer can implement.
Except the through roads are maxed out, adding more people won't help their congestion any.
Ironically, this is part of the problem. Brookhaven is close enough to Buckhead, that the overhead in a HRT ride one stop, is unlikely to ever outweigh just driving, even if you're destination is near that one stop. Think about it, once you're downstairs in this TOD, you need to give 2 minutes to get to the train, it's a 3 minute ride, then about 1 minute up to street level at Lenox, then at least another minute if you work right there near the southern end of Lenox Mall. So that's 7 minutes. Drive time at rush hour takes about 10. So yes, by the numbers, the train has a very slight advantage.
But if you work up near the red line station, then you'd have to go all the way to Lindbergh, then take a Red Line back up. That's easily a 20 minute trip while it's still 10-15 driving. Going to Lenox and transferring to the 110 would be about as long as rail all the way, and that still assumes your destination is near the Buckhead station.
If the 110 went to Brookhaven instead, and ran better headways, then certainly, the transit option would make a lot more sense. Even better if there was local bus service out of Lenox serving Buckhead (there's now only one shuttle, that just goes to one business/residential park). This gets even better if there's a streetcar along the 100 route at some future date.
Actually, no, the growth doesn't have to come. Outside the through corridors, unless development is allowed to happen, then the growth can't happen.
Correct me if I am worng, but isn't Lenox Station in Buckhead?
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