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OP -- I'm not at all insulted by your opinions -- no skin off my nose -- but I am wondering why you are writing off a choice of city based on one neighborhood (Midtown). That may not be the case but it seems you are very focused on Midtown, when in fact if you did get a job offer here there's a high likelihood that it could be located elsewhere -- and perhaps nearer to a walkable, multiuse area.
No matter which city you investigate, it seems very limiting to make a judgement based on a fraction of the area.
Yeah, well, when you have 400 subway stations and tall skyscrapers line every inch of every block on every street, with everything built right up on the street, you can have 4-lane avenues and everyone will still walk everywhere. Has more to do with the culture of a place.
Also, the other factor is that Atlanta actually needs MORE traffic, in the city. Just to get people to slow down. Manhattan has so many cars that you can't drive that fast. So it becomes friendlier to pedestrians.
And another point to dovetail with your post is that nearly all of the numbered east to west cross streets in Manhattan are indeed very narrow and often hopelessly traffic-clogged.
The lower Manhattan Wall Street area is a warren of largely narrow & confining streets that are a legacy of when the city was originally laid out there at the tip of the island.
The major north to south arteries that run most of the length of Manhattan must be the wider streets that the other member referred to.
I'd venture you know next to nothing about Louisville. There is I think something like 6 tower cranes up downtown now. Billions in construction. hundreds of restaurants and nightlife. Your statements lack any credibility at all, and everyone who has posted here agrees.
That said, Atlanta has a decent and improving downtown. And Louisville's downtown is dead after 5 pm? You are just googling stuff there. Just because you can name drop the highlands does not give much street cred there. There are events almost nightly between the yum center, theatre district, conventions, multiple hotels (and 11 recently completed or under construction downtown) etc. Because Louisville has a compact downtown, much like Richmond and New Orleans, B'ham, etc, it can actually feel MORE vibrant in downtown Louisville than midtown or downtown ATL. Quite frequently actually.
To a degree I see what you are saying. Atlanta is "dead" for a major city. But it is far from dead. ATL has tons going on, and while I did wish Peachtree felt more walkable, it has developed sort of like a linear office and condo park...think Brickell in Miami. Louisville is dead compared to a mid sized European city....I get that. But compared to anywhere in America? A place like Louisville has a humming downtown, especially several blocks of main, market, and 4th street. Louisvile's urban hoods? There is the real vibrancy, and the same can be said for ATL as you note
I'm sorry, but this is just completely divorced from everything I've observed in Louisville. Maybe my observations are way off base (not that I really have a horse in any fight as I travel around the country), but I would put Louisville a solid notch below Cincinnati or Indianapolis. It's well above any of the non-Miami Florida cities, however. But I've never observed downtown Louisville being anything resembling "busy" on the nights I've been there. The convention center and KFC center are just in horrible locations and really break up the continuity.
I am always impressed by the number of very large historical buildings in downtown Louisville, however. I would estimate its stock of big, historic buildings is like 3-4 times larger than Atlanta's.
American cities are not cafe sidewalk dining cities. It's not even a lot of sidewalk dinning here in '
NY. Sorry this Isn't Europe.
Honestly though Midtown has a decent amount of sidewalk cafe dining...I mean, just between 5th street and 8th street on Peachtree, you have The Gyro Sandwich shop, World of Beer, French Pastries shop, Five Guys, Fresh to Order, Scorpion Tequila Bar, Gordon Biersch, The Vortex, The Asian Noodle Shop, and Hi Five. That's a lot of restaurants with outdoor street dining...
And Atlanta has a whole is definitely doing better with the outdoor safe dining. In Inman Park Village for example, you have Barcelona, Bartaco, Bread and Butterfly, and Beetlecat.
I recently visited Atlanta for the first time to see if it was a place I would potentially like to work in. I visited a lot of the city's core neighborhoods (and some suburbs). I knew that Downtown Atlanta had a weak reputation for the size of the metro area and that the metro area is incredibly sprawled out. But I kept on reading and hearing that Midtown Atlanta was a relatively vibrant, urban neighborhood-- good for young professionals (a category I belong to).
When I actually got to Atlanta, Downtown was basically what I expected it to be but Midtown was a big disappointment. It was fairly sterile, un-lively the two times I visited, and after-hours most of the pedestrian activity on the streets seemed to be recreational (i.e. jogging or walking a dog) instead of utilitarian. There was a lack of sidewalk dining and the few tables that were out were all vacant, even though it was 70 degrees with no humidity when I was there. I think Peachtree Street itself is a problem: it's too wide and the speed limit is too high. This really makes sitting on a bench or at a table unpleasant, so I can see why practically no one would want to sit outside even on days with good weather. My recommendation to the CoA would be to reduce the speed limit and narrow the street (and widen the sidewalks or add bike lanes instead).
Piedmont Park was nice, but I have decided to cross Atlanta off my list as a potential work location. I used to live in a town of 20,000 people in Europe that was more vibrant than Downtown & Midtown Atlanta...
I hope to revisit the city and metro area in a few decades and see the results of change and progress!
I think this is a fair assessment and its no insult on the neighborhood that Midtown didn't meet your expectations. I think what many of us love about Midtown is its amenities such as Piedmont Park and its potential. I myself didn't realize how many empty lots there are/were in Midtown until this huge wave of development and yet there is still no shortage of undeveloped/underdeveloped lots in the district.
The OP only got a snapshot of present-day Atlanta. They didn't see Atlanta in the past. They don't have the benefit of hindsight as people more familiar with it. They don't know how far it's come.
To the OP: If you feel Midtown is not vibrant now, you should have seen it 20 years ago when it was a "dangerous" place to walk the street and nobody did (other than prostitutes). You should have seen it when it was filled with peep shows and dirty movie palaces. At one time a lot of it was the "hood." At one time there were a lot fewer residents than now and the streets were virtually empty. Atlanta is a city that has suffered massive population loss in the past. This occurred despite the massive metropolitan growth. It is strange to people that such a large metro area doesn't have the level of vibrancy it should have. That is an American phenomenon. Our cities suffered while the suburban rings prospered. Exactly opposite Europe's experience where the suburbs are the ghetto and the cities are rich and prosperous. Atlanta is only now beginning to re-urbanize. Midtown is undergoing a population and development explosion. Dozens of new projects are under construction or in planning. Nearly 20,000 new residents are expected in a one square mile area. Many new people live there now and the streets are a lot more active than they used to be. There are a lot of new restaurants and businesses to cater to the new people. It's getting better day by day. Having said that, It's got farther to go to achieve the kind of activity you are seeking. Atlanta's downtown isn't yet seeing massive population growth but that's starting to change too. A high-rise office building was converted to residential a year ago and new residential is under construction near the Olympic Park. Hopefully the tide is turning.
I am a little surprised you didn't like Decatur. It is as close to a perfect urban area as one can find and is also growing rapidly with urban projects. Decatur is really lively. If you associate bars and late night activity with "vibrancy," you missed Atlanta's heyday when it was a wild 24 hour party town-that was the 70's. LOL!
No, Atlanta's population loss was not massive. It peaked in 1970 at 495,000 and the population dropped to 394,000 in 1990 and has been going up ever since. That is only 101,000 people. Contrast that with St. Louis, Cleveland, and Detroit, which are currently 550,000, 500,000 and 1.1 million, respectively, below their peak populations.
Milan tried to institute a post-midnight ban on ice cream last month. Part of a clampdown on late-night food and drink sales, Milan’s mayor perhaps feared that crowds outside Gelaterias – I’m struggling here – might go on sugar high rampages through the night. The rule proved too silly to stand, thankfully, but it's only the strangest of a host of attacks on nightlife in European cities to have cropped up recently.
Take Madrid, for example. Long home to one of Europe’s latest-running social scenes, its city center was declared a "low-noise zone" last September, and the city council have been refusing to issue bar and club licenses ever since. Coupled with sales tax increases on drinks, this has led to 60 to 100 nightclubs closing in Madrid since the rules were put in place.
OP -- I'm not at all insulted by your opinions -- no skin off my nose -- but I am wondering why you are writing off a choice of city based on one neighborhood (Midtown). That may not be the case but it seems you are very focused on Midtown, when in fact if you did get a job offer here there's a high likelihood that it could be located elsewhere -- and perhaps nearer to a walkable, multiuse area.
No matter which city you investigate, it seems very limiting to make a judgement based on a fraction of the area.
I visited many other areas than just Midtown, and I did not make my judgment based on Midtown alone. But given my preferences for an urban lifestyle, Midtown was the neighborhood I was looking forward to see the most since I knew Downtown had a mixed reputation. And Midtown was the biggest let-down. I do have to admit I was underwhelmed by Downtown Decatur as well considering the town is historic. The Eastside neighborhoods in Atlanta were nice and I don't have anything bad to say about them. However, they don't offer more than I can get in Winston-Salem's Downtown/Arts District/West End/Old Salem where I currently am. I'm not into alternative lifestyles, but if I was then I could see the appeal to L5P and EAV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staysean23
American cities are not cafe sidewalk dining cities. It's not even a lot of sidewalk dinning here in '
NY. Sorry this Isn't Europe.
The more I travel to various American cities, the more I think you're completely right. I do think it's a shame though. Sidewalk dining and more public spaces/third places (besides parks, which America is good at) can help foster a greater sense of community and improve social cohesion. Although, I think the lack of social cohesion in America (so much tension between various social groups) is partially the cause of the lack of sidewalk dining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
Honestly though Midtown has a decent amount of sidewalk cafe dining...I mean, just between 5th street and 8th street on Peachtree, you have The Gyro Sandwich shop, World of Beer, French Pastries shop, Five Guys, Fresh to Order, Scorpion Tequila Bar, Gordon Biersch, The Vortex, The Asian Noodle Shop, and Hi Five. That's a lot of restaurants with outdoor street dining...
And Atlanta has a whole is definitely doing better with the outdoor safe dining. In Inman Park Village for example, you have Barcelona, Bartaco, Bread and Butterfly, and Beetlecat.
This is a good point! I saw many of those places. What struck me as odd is that during my entire walk of Midtown on a Saturday evening with 70 degrees and no humidity or rain, only one person was sitting outside on one of those tables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue
I think this is a fair assessment and its no insult on the neighborhood that Midtown didn't meet your expectations. I think what many of us love about Midtown is its amenities such as Piedmont Park and its potential. I myself didn't realize how many empty lots there are/were in Midtown until this huge wave of development and yet there is still no shortage of undeveloped/underdeveloped lots in the district.
Good point! Piedmont Park was the best aspect of Midtown for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel
Urban nightlife in Europe is facing some challenges too.
Milan tried to institute a post-midnight ban on ice cream last month. Part of a clampdown on late-night food and drink sales, Milan’s mayor perhaps feared that crowds outside Gelaterias – I’m struggling here – might go on sugar high rampages through the night. The rule proved too silly to stand, thankfully, but it's only the strangest of a host of attacks on nightlife in European cities to have cropped up recently.
Take Madrid, for example. Long home to one of Europe’s latest-running social scenes, its city center was declared a "low-noise zone" last September, and the city council have been refusing to issue bar and club licenses ever since. Coupled with sales tax increases on drinks, this has led to 60 to 100 nightclubs closing in Madrid since the rules were put in place.
That's a shame; good thing it's going strong in the countries I frequent! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the reply. I never said I thought Atlanta would be like London; that is a straw-man's argument. I live in NC so I am familiar with Southern cities, but I feel Atlanta's core is weaker relative to its metro size than even other Southern cities. I saw Crescent Ave and while I like that it's narrower than Peachtree St., it's still a bit sterile. I visited the other places you mentioned and they were also mediocre, especially Downtown Decatur.
Also, I did visit Midtown on a Saturday and it was 70 degrees with no humidity. A city like Copenhagen is lively and full of street-life in its center even on weekday nights and when the temperature is cold. Outdoor dining and socializing is made possible with the extensive use of blankets and heaters--but even in chilly Denmark it's there. Not to mention Copenhagen is a much smaller urban area than Atlanta population-wise.
Looks like I won't be living in the South for much longer!
Then there's pretty much no need to go any other other American regions and cities either, cause your standard is through the roof. Your standard is so high it litteally applies to 90% of American cities.
You said "Copenhagen" only like New York, SF, Chicago maybe New Orleans can keep with a European city. The rest of American it's only like small areas or districts In DC, Philly, Seattle.....
It's not like Houston, Dallas, Miami, Minneapolis, Portland, St Louis, Phoenix, Cleveland, Tampa, Kansas City, or other multi million 2 - 6 million metro in the US does either.
Also you made an error Downtown and Midtown together is Atlanta core not just Downtown. Downtown is a north American term that applies to cities "Central Business district." cause most American cities have one Central Business district at it's center. But this doesn't always apply. Just cause Midtown Atlanta doesn't have the term "Downtown" doesn't change it's continuation as part of the core.
You basically criticize Downtown and midtown separately. Then took Downtown Atlanta by itself to represent Atlanta core than said I feel Atlanta's core is weaker relative to its metro size than even other Southern cities.
what southern metros are you talking about? Only like New Orleans and Miami have a denser and more active core than Atlanta in the South. New Orleans obvious is the most urban core in the south and one of the most in the country. Miami is very questionable with street activity and urbanity at it's core but it boom the 3 largest amount of tower. But outside of that
Dallas and Houston posters would tell you Atlanta core feel more urban, Atlanta is older they didn't pass Atlanta until the 30's and 50's. their CBD are less populated, ringed by freeways, and and they have nothing adjusted to their Downtown's like Midtown, so can't be talking about them.
Nashville, and Memphis have very active entertainment districts but their core are no where near as urban as Atlanta. And you can't be talking about NC cities.
My point what your calling "mediocre" about Atlanta would be even worst in most other southern metros.
And Comparing Atlanta to Copenhagen is basically an extreme standard. Even America most urban cities Philly and Boston are less urban compared Copenhagen.
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Diappointed in Midtown
