Qatar Airlines entering Atlanta to Doha with a big splash - Sending the one time big baby Airbus 380 (luxury, living)

[testa50]

Originally Posted by jsvh

But it is not the same.

How do you justify the ME3 domination of international markets in your mind? Do you think all these US carriers are cutting back their flights because the US is not able to operate airlines as well?

They're definitely able to operate more cheaply, and they have a distinct geographic advantage over the American airlines. We have good connections to Latin America, but India and Africa each have populations roughly double the size of Latin America's; the ME3 therefore have hugely larger connecting markets. Also, don't discount the ability to have passengers layover without needing a visa; that's huge and something the American government prohibits.

Further, the ME3 are relatively small origin-destination markets themselves, so it stands to reason that they will have more of their spokes terminate at the large American markets than American carriers would have spokes terminate at their markets. When Delta flew to Dubai, even with most of its traffic connecting through Atlanta, a large plurality still interlined to different destinations beyond Dubai (namely India).

Not to say government support means nothing, but government support is far from an open-shut explanation for how the ME3 are beating back the domestic carriers.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by testa50

They're definitely able to operate more cheaply, and they have a distinct geographic advantage over the American airlines. We have good connections to Latin America, but India and Africa each have populations roughly double the size of Latin America's; the ME3 therefore have hugely larger connecting markets. Also, don't discount the ability to have passengers layover without needing a visa; that's huge and something the American government prohibits.

Further, the ME3 are relatively small origin-destination markets themselves, so it stands to reason that they will have more of their spokes terminate at the large American markets than American carriers would have spokes terminate at their markets. When Delta flew to Dubai, even with most of its traffic connecting through Atlanta, a large plurality still interlined to different destinations beyond Dubai (namely India).

Not to say government support means nothing, but government support is far from an open-shut explanation for how the ME3 are beating back the domestic carriers.

There is no "distinct geographic advantage" in the skies. Carriers from both countries should be able to profitably operate routes between them. A to B should be level playing field flying B to A.

[magnetar]

Originally Posted by Atlwarrior

how does the government regulate a product that some Americans prefer to use, yet knowing its not in line with the United States way of doing business or free market ethical principles.

You mean like Saudi oil? It's not like this is the only situation where domestic companies compete against state-run monopolies.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlwarrior

On the contrary, how does the government regulate a product that some Americans prefer to use, yet knowing its not in line with the United States way of doing business or free market ethical principles.

It is not that the Middle East carriers are offering a better product. Just a better price. Just like the bread in soviet russia wasn't a better product. Just a better price.

[munna21977]

Originally Posted by jsvh

It is not that the Middle East carriers are offering a better product. Just a better price. Just like the bread in soviet russia wasn't a better product. Just a better price.

Middle East Carriers offer better seat-pitch then USA carriers. Middle East Carriers offer better Food and complimentary alcohol for Economy Class passengers. By contrast American carriers were charging for headphones or Beer. Middle East Carriers offer 2 bags of 23 kilos free in Economy Class. American Carriers will allow only 1 bag of 23 kilos free in Economy Class.
In short, customers have chosen that which product is better for them.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by munna21977

Middle East Carriers offer better seat-pitch then USA carriers. Middle East Carriers offer better Food and complimentary alcohol for Economy Class passengers. By contrast American carriers were charging for headphones or Beer. Middle East Carriers offer 2 bags of 23 kilos free in Economy Class. American Carriers will allow only 1 bag of 23 kilos free in Economy Class.
In short, customers have chosen that which product is better for them.

Those things are all price based. Its easy to not charge for 23 kilos of bags when you don't have to turn a profit.

[DreamerD]

Originally Posted by jsvh

But it is not the same.

How do you justify the ME3 domination of international markets in your mind? Do you think all these US carriers are cutting back their flights because the US is not able to operate airlines as well?

Originally Posted by testa50

They're definitely able to operate more cheaply, and they have a distinct geographic advantage over the American airlines. We have good connections to Latin America, but India and Africa each have populations roughly double the size of Latin America's; the ME3 therefore have hugely larger connecting markets. Also, don't discount the ability to have passengers layover without needing a visa; that's huge and something the American government prohibits.

Further, the ME3 are relatively small origin-destination markets themselves, so it stands to reason that they will have more of their spokes terminate at the large American markets than American carriers would have spokes terminate at their markets. When Delta flew to Dubai, even with most of its traffic connecting through Atlanta, a large plurality still interlined to different destinations beyond Dubai (namely India).

Not to say government support means nothing, but government support is far from an open-shut explanation for how the ME3 are beating back the domestic carriers.

Originally Posted by jsvh

There is no "distinct geographic advantage" in the skies. Carriers from both countries should be able to profitably operate routes between them. A to B should be level playing field flying B to A.

Originally Posted by jsvh

It is not that the Middle East carriers are offering a better product. Just a better price. Just like the bread in soviet russia wasn't a better product. Just a better price.

Originally Posted by munna21977

Middle East Carriers offer better seat-pitch then USA carriers. Middle East Carriers offer better Food and complimentary alcohol for Economy Class passengers. By contrast American carriers were charging for headphones or Beer. Middle East Carriers offer 2 bags of 23 kilos free in Economy Class. American Carriers will allow only 1 bag of 23 kilos free in Economy Class.
In short, customers have chosen that which product is better for them.

Jsvh, Testa covered a lot of what I was going to write. I do believe that there is a geographic advantage. Do you know what the demographics of a lot of countries, for example in the Gulf, are? There are many many Asians and so there is a lot of demand for flights within the region and because they aren't that far (in comparison to the U.S), it's cheaper. It's easier to travel from the Middle East than to travel from the U.S. Speak to people who have traveled there and they will tell you that one of the benefits of living in the M.E. is being a lot closer to travel destinations.

As for the M.E. carriers not offering a better product...I don't know. From all the people I've spoken to, M.E. carriers trump U.S. carriers ANY day.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by DreamerD

Jsvh, Testa covered a lot of what I was going to write. I do believe that there is a geographic advantage. Do you know what the demographics of a lot of countries, for example in the Gulf, are? There are many many Asians and so there is a lot of demand for flights within the region and because they aren't that far (in comparison to the U.S), it's cheaper. It's easier to travel from the Middle East than to travel from the U.S. Speak to people who have traveled there and they will tell you that one of the benefits of living in the M.E. is being a lot closer to travel destinations.

As for the M.E. carriers not offering a better product...I don't know. From all the people I've spoken to, M.E. carriers trump U.S. carriers ANY day.

If country A and B both have multiple airlines and only country A is dominating the routes between them, there is a larger problem beyond the airlines.

I don't care how nice the dictator's private jets are that they are letting you fly on for free, having them take american jobs without a level playing field is just wrong.

We can't stop them from flying to asia, but if you want free trade with the US you are required to level the playing field. If the ME3 won't un-subsudize then they should be banned from flying here or have heavy tariffs imposed until they do.

[munna21977]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Those things are all price based. Its easy to not charge for 23 kilos of bags when you don't have to turn a profit.

If customers have to choose between American Carriers and ME Carriers, they will choose the latter ones which provide them better seat pitch, better food, wine and more luggage allowance. You cant expect them to suffer in poorer seat, less appealing food, less baggage allowance just because some CEO and top board of that private airlines want to buy yacht or an exotic island?? Why should passengers suffer because of greed of management of private American Carriers?

Talking about sudsidy, what about Bankruptcy protection of American Carriers? They are also a type of subsidy. Airlines in Asia and Europe fly thru Airports which are run by private companies and charge more for their parking charges. In contrast, American Airports are tax-payer subsidised and under control of public bodies. So you see here-subsidy is enjoyed by American Carriers also. Yet they are accusing Foreign carriers of having subsidy. American Carriers enjoy subsidy, give poor service, get beaten in competition and then they are trying to ban those airlines who are giving better service and taking away their customers.

[DreamerD]

Originally Posted by jsvh

If country A and B both have multiple airlines and only country A is dominating the routes between them, there is a larger problem beyond the airlines.

I don't care how nice the dictator's private jets are that they are letting you fly on for free, having them take american jobs without a level playing field is just wrong.

We can't stop them from flying to asia, but if you want free trade with the US you are required to level the playing field. If the ME3 won't un-subsudize then they should be banned from flying here or have heavy tariffs imposed until they do.

When a company in the U.S. decides to close down and outsource, U.S. Americans lose their jobs. A lot of times the company is turning a profit, but is just being greedy. The same could be same of insourcing but the company doesn't close and just replaces U.S. workers.

As with U.S. carriers, they were making profit and made the choice to cut those routes. Whose fault is that that people lose their jobs as a result? Who are we to blame for U.S. carriers being greedy?

There is no such thing as free trade. It all comes at a cost. One of the costs for the U.S. is a lost in jobs because of cheaper labor abroad.