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Old 11-10-2016, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,553 posts, read 8,616,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
To throw that out (amend it specifically) would be the definition of democracy. Everyone's votes should count equally.
What would you propose to do about the Congress?
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:56 AM
 
27,725 posts, read 24,737,149 times
Reputation: 16450
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
Once again, we are NOT a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic, as has been stated and explained ad nauseum in this thread.
You're incorrect; we are both a representative democracy and a constitutional republic.
I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-a-democracy/
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Atlanta and St Simons Island, GA
20,895 posts, read 32,892,157 times
Reputation: 12542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
You're incorrect; we are both a representative democracy and a constitutional republic.
I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-a-democracy/
And we are talking in the context of the voting process here. So my definition, in such context, is correct. I assume that "officers and representatives" is, among other things, a reference to the College.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:17 AM
 
361 posts, read 158,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrygal View Post


"Fair and square?" Maybe I am dense, but it still does not make sense as to how any candidate with more votes than his/her opponent can still end up losing an election. I don't get it.


I wont get into the debate between using an electoral college or direct vote system. I don't really have a dog in that fight.

But I just want to say that pointing towards national/total votes from an election specifically run as an electoral college setup with the goal of de-legitimizing the winner (or vise versa) doesn't make sense. The system places huge incentives in some states, and waters down votes in others. A true national vote would have huge implications for voter turnout, so you cannot really extrapolate what would happen using data from our current process.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Sandy Springs)
3,528 posts, read 2,301,001 times
Reputation: 2762
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
Once again, we are NOT a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic, as has been stated and explained ad nauseum in this thread.
You are wrong. And I don't get this thing with conservatives who are frequently wrong on this.

We ARE a democracy. Time to read the dictionary. I've bolded the relevant parts of the definition for your edification.

Democracy | Define Democracy at Dictionary.com

Quote:
noun, plural democracies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government:
The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
Some additional reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

It is not either or.

A constitutional republic is one form of democracy.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: In your feelings
2,199 posts, read 1,488,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
Bingo. In our inception, we were by and large agrarian and very spread out. Many farmers would find it logistically impossible to access a polling place. The Electoral College was a means of inclusion for remote regions of the new nation. The Framers felt that an intermediary (the Elector) was needed to ensure that they were heard as well.
You say this as though the way Americans live hasn't changed dramatically in two centuries. Most Americans live in cities. The electoral college system ensures that people who live in cities get proportionally less attention and representation in the political process than people in rural areas.

There are 5 times as many people in the metro Atlanta area than in the entire state of New Hampshire. Both candidates made personal appearances in New Hampshire last week, neither came to Atlanta. Because our votes didn't matter as much as New Hampshire's. In what universe does that make sense in any way? The electoral college disenfranchises people who live in large urban cities, which is most of the people in this country—a concept that the framers did not take into account when devising this system of presidential election.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:31 AM
 
Location: ATL -> HOU
4,129 posts, read 3,221,864 times
Reputation: 3149
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
I did read your post. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually did understand it but just didn't like it before assuming you were unaware of something that I learned in school 40 years ago.

Neither of which necessitates using something like the Electoral College, though.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
To throw that out (amend it specifically) would be the definition of democracy. Everyone's votes should count equally.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
Once again, we are NOT a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic, as has been stated and explained ad nauseum in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
You're incorrect; we are both a representative democracy and a constitutional republic.
I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-a-democracy/
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
And we are talking in the context of the voting process here. So my definition, in such context, is correct. I assume that "officers and representatives" is, among other things, a reference to the College.
We are a representative democracy because we elect representatives to run our government. That still exists without an electoral college. A true democracy means we vote on every single piece of policy, voting for or against every single bill. Nothing to do with the electoral college except in the fact that it is an archaic vehicle in which our votes are counted and packaged for the election of the head of the country. As it stands now, swing states have too much influence. It's no secret that those states get the most campaigning done. Essentially the rust belt flipped from Dem to GOP and that arguable decided it. By making trade and manufacturing a big issue Trump was able to court voters from that area.

For those supporting the EC for the election of the president, do you also support a system like that for electing the governor? Obviously this doesn't occur now but what if it did? Would you still like it? Gwinnett would probably be a swing county considering it voted Clinton. Dekalb would surely be a Dem lock, etc.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,553 posts, read 8,616,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnetar View Post
There are 5 times as many people in the metro Atlanta area than in the entire state of New Hampshire. Both candidates made personal appearances in New Hampshire last week, neither came to Atlanta. Because our votes didn't matter as much as New Hampshire's. In what universe does that make sense in any way?
It would be a waste of resources for either candidate to have visited Georgia. The Trump campaign already had the state sewn up and the Clinton campaign knew that. Thus, no love to Georgia. New Hampshire was a toss up - Mrs. Clinton won the state by only three thousand votes. Thus, it made sense to campaign there. Mr. Trump won Georgia by about two hundred thousand votes.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:36 AM
 
361 posts, read 158,987 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnetar View Post
You say this as though the way Americans live hasn't changed dramatically in two centuries. Most Americans live in cities. The electoral college system ensures that people who live in cities get proportionally less attention and representation in the political process than people in rural areas.

There are 5 times as many people in the metro Atlanta area than in the entire state of New Hampshire. Both candidates made personal appearances in New Hampshire last week, neither came to Atlanta. Because our votes didn't matter as much as New Hampshire's. In what universe does that make sense in any way? The electoral college disenfranchises people who live in large urban cities, which is most of the people in this country—a concept that the framers did not take into account when devising this system of presidential election.
At it's core, an electoral college system itself doesn't favor rural areas over urban. It only disenfranchises larger states because in the current system electoral votes are based on a combination of Senate and House seats. If electoral votes were given out in proportion purely to population, it wouldn't heavily favor some states over others due solely to population.

But this wouldn't do anything about the problem of swing vs partisan states. Atlanta didn't get visits because it's in a safe state. NH got visits because it is a swing state. That has nothing to do with urban vs rural so your example isn't really valid.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:48 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 859,477 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
Baloney !
There aren't enough electoral votes in many states for candidates to even worry about voters in those small states.


How many trips to North Dakota did Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump make ?
Hard to say in a way. If the state is already solidly in one camp. Both might ignore it. But with the present system, it's not automatically a "fly over" state. The least number of votes is 3, 3 here and 3 there, it adds up.
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