The ATL: new regional transit system (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: crime, wealthy, retire)

[Moosehd]

Cool. It could be 3 stops on the Powder Springs line. Probably will take 2-3 mins to get from Powder Springs to Austell then 1 min to Mableton then straight into 5 points so people in Powder Springs could get into downtown Atl in 15 mins tops

[Moosehd]

Originally Posted by primaltech

We just need to add 1-2 new tracks to all the railroad corridors in the ATL area. That would allow plenty high frequency commuter rail, as frequent as we want, or want to fund- and also would increase freight capacity, so that's the carrot that would get NS/CSX to agree to allow the sharing use of the lines they own.

Sounds like a plan to me. Build that MMPT and have a tunnel that connects to 5 points like they have in Midtown Manhattan. In the tunnel have a few stores in there along the walkway

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by tikigod311

100% agree that Commuter rail is the best option for rail in Cobb. Forget this light rail nonsense for long transit lines, seriously.

Here's how transit will find success in Cobb. Frequent and fast commuter rail style service with synchronized transfers to buses. It has to be significantly quicker than driving during rush hours.

Provide a full solution like that and viola, you will get buy-in from voters. Provide an alternative that is quicker than driving and people will be willing to spend tax dollars on that project. This is no time for half measures, we've been on that kick for too damn long

Originally Posted by primaltech

And then the other benefit to commuter rail is that the stops could be in actually walkable areas like the Marietta square. Whereas a heavy or light rail line along I-75 would be extremely if not totally park&ride oriented.

A commuter rail could potentially be both. Commuter park&ride and walk-up and bus connections.

A 1% sales tax, which the county was prepared to approve just a couple months ago for public safety, is estimated to raise $130 Million per year. Over 30 years, that's nearly $4 Billion on its own. Now, let's say 75% of that is set asside for high-capacity transit, with 100% federal matching for all of that high-capacity transit funding.

So, that gives ~$1 Billion for local bus operations, with ~$3 Billion local funding for high-capacity transit, and ~$6 Billion total funding for high-capacity transit when including federal funds.

Now, let's look at some likely rail. There are three main commuter rail corridors, and one main heavy / light rail corridor in the county. Those are, in order of service type, 5-Points to Powder Springs, 5-Points to Acworth, 5-Points to Noonday, and Arts Center to Cumberland.

Those commuter rail lines, all together, would likely cost $1.8 Billion. The heavy rail line would likely cost $2.5 Billion. Both were calculated using fairly standard per-mile costs. That's 79 miles of rail for $4.3 Billion, out of a total availible funding of ~$6 Billion. The rest can be left for opperations, additional heavy rail, Bus Rapid Transit, or even cycled back into expanded local operations.

Of course, all of that is up for negotiation, and tweaking from more precise estimates and break-downs, but the point is that Cobb has billions of dollars to work with, if it wants to. It can afford BOTH kinds of rail if it wants to, without sacrificing local buses and other transit forms to do so.

Originally Posted by bu2

So if they weren't so backward, they would be using 150 year old technology?

In 1769 the first steam-powered automobile capable of human transportation was built by Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot.

The earliest railways employed horses to draw carts along rail tracks In 1784, with the first full-scale working railway steam locomotive, the Coalbrookdale Locomotive, was built by Trevithick in 1802.

Automobiles are older than the modern idea of a railway, even if it is only by 73 years.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

A 1% sales tax, which the county was prepared to approve just a couple months ago for public safety, is estimated to raise $130 Million per year. Over 30 years, that's nearly $4 Billion on its own. Now, let's say 75% of that is set asside for high-capacity transit, with 100% federal matching for all of that high-capacity transit funding.

So, that gives ~$1 Billion for local bus operations, with ~$3 Billion local funding for high-capacity transit, and ~$6 Billion total funding for high-capacity transit when including federal funds.

Now, let's look at some likely rail. There are three main commuter rail corridors, and one main heavy / light rail corridor in the county. Those are, in order of service type, 5-Points to Powder Springs, 5-Points to Acworth, 5-Points to Noonday, and Arts Center to Cumberland.

Those commuter rail lines, all together, would likely cost $1.8 Billion. The heavy rail line would likely cost $2.5 Billion. Both were calculated using fairly standard per-mile costs. That's 79 miles of rail for $4.3 Billion, out of a total availible funding of ~$6 Billion. The rest can be left for opperations, additional heavy rail, Bus Rapid Transit, or even cycled back into expanded local operations.

Of course, all of that is up for negotiation, and tweaking from more precise estimates and break-downs, but the point is that Cobb has billions of dollars to work with, if it wants to. It can afford BOTH kinds of rail if it wants to, without sacrificing local buses and other transit forms to do so.

Yeah, but Cobb is not a dictatorship. And its constituents make up a wide spectrum of views about all this.

In order for us to get anything new, a referendum has to pass. And it's not even 51% of what the residents of the county want, but 51% of the people who get out and vote that day, which in this case sounds like it will be an odd year, 2019. (Kind of hope they wait until 2020, actually.) And either way, we all know who votes and who doesn't vote, in terms of demographics. And we all know how a sizable chunk of Cobb residents feel about taxes, and public transportation, or public anything. And MARTA and etc.

Chairman Boyce doesn't want a failed referendum (nor do I), and he doesn't think a transit-only 1 penny sales tax will pass. Unless you or someone can convince him that it would pass, you're just wasting your time talking to us about hypotheticals at that funding level. Right now he and the Cobb delegation are trying to work some kind of wording or something into the final compromise bill, that will perhaps allow Cobb to mix in non-transit transportation into the transit. I dunno exactly what they're doing, or if it will make it in to the final product that the governor will sign, or what. We'll know by the end of this month.

Honestly I see why they're gunning for that idea, and I think it's smart, considering Cobb voters. Because they know that many of the county residents who would vote no for transit, do want road improvements, so by combining it all, they'll have to vote yes for the transit in order to get all that. Whereas separating it out into 2 votes of 1/2 penny each, would not help the chances of the transit half passing.

And I'm just guessing about the 1/2 penny- I don't know what % of the referendum will go to transit. I also don't know if it will be for a full penny, but I think it will be.

Anyway, there's no way we're going to have 2 types of rail. We might get 1 at most, but maybe none, and just some BRT type stuff.

My hope, given the facts of reality and the circumstances we're working with here, is that we get 1/2 penny dedicated to transit, much of which can go towards commuter rail for the county, assisted by both state and federal funds. With improved bus service, including operating on Sundays.

That's probably about what we'd get. And commuter rail will probably be an overall favorite, given factors such as cost, perceived value for that cost, how long it will take to be built and come online, and how disruptive the construction would be and the actual operation would be. Commuter rail would generate the least amount of general NIMBY'ism (and Tea Party type opposition) than other types of rail would in Cobb.

[brown_dog_us]

Originally Posted by primaltech

And I'm just guessing about the 1/2 penny- I don't know what % of the referendum will go to transit. I also don't know if it will be for a full penny, but I think it will be.

Anyway, there's no way we're going to have 2 types of rail. We might get 1 at most, but maybe none, and just some BRT type stuff.

My hope, given the facts of reality and the circumstances we're working with here, is that we get 1/2 penny dedicated to transit, much of which can go towards commuter rail for the county, assisted by both state and federal funds. With improved bus service, including operating on Sundays.

Will there be enough money to actually do the things that are being talked about? 4thwarden laid out some good numbers, and half of that won't pay for all the lines and stations you are talking about. I get the feeling what will pass at the ballot box will be a lot of road stuff and one rail line.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by Moosehd

Cool. It could be 3 stops on the Powder Springs line. Probably will take 2-3 mins to get from Powder Springs to Austell then 1 min to Mableton then straight into 5 points so people in Powder Springs could get into downtown Atl in 15 mins tops

Powder Springs to Downtown would be 15 minutes if the train was going nearly 80MPH without stopping. Once you factor in deceleration, stops, and acceleration, there ain’t no way a train is getting from Powder Springs to Downtown in 15 minutes, unless it’s super high speed.

[Moosehd]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Powder Springs to Downtown would be 15 minutes if the train was going nearly 80MPH without stopping. Once you factor in deceleration, stops, and acceleration, there ain’t no way a train is getting from Powder Springs to Downtown in 15 minutes, unless it’s super high speed.

If the last stop going into downtown is Austell that shouldn't take no more than 10 mins

[tikigod311]

You start showing these shorter commute times and voters buy in.

There's a large number of people out there that have the perception that transit only benefits other people. Change that dynamic about transit and we'll win over a ton of voters.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

Will there be enough money to actually do the things that are being talked about? 4thwarden laid out some good numbers, and half of that won't pay for all the lines and stations you are talking about. I get the feeling what will pass at the ballot box will be a lot of road stuff and one rail line.

It probably will be just one rail line, between Atlanta and Marietta. And hopefully with some state and federal funds to help with the capital cost.

That line is the Western & Atlantic, which is owned by Georgia, and leased to CSX. And CSX sounds like have already indicated they're okay with commuter rail along it, on new tracks.

The other line, that goes to Powder Springs, is owned by Norfolk Southern and is a really busy line. Sill possible, but a little more difficult situation there.

A 1/2 penny (with the federal and state funding assistance), should be able to get us that commuter rail line, plus improved bus service throughout the county. South Cobb would probably get some kind of BRT-lite.

[aries4118]

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Creep
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_ra...ep?wprov=sfti1