Gwinnett loses another HQ because of MARTA (Atlanta, Alpharetta: sales, house)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

It wouldn't work well in a suburban environment like Gwinnett because there are so many residential subdivisions that were never designed for bus traffic, I don't even know if the buses could get down the streets or turn around in the cul de sacs. Not to mention the gated communities.

All of the BRT routes there use a state or U.S. highway, or at least a major arterial.

There are tons of standard streets throughout the county that local buses could use. They don't need to dive into every subdivision or culdesac, just stick to the roads used to get to those subdivisions. The historic towns are better set for standard 'city' routes, serving to bring people into the town, and transfer to the more rapid and frequent lines.


Gwinnett is suited just fine for a bus network. It's even suited just fine for some real rail service.


All that keeps the county with a cruddy system is its own refusal to either join MARTA or do its own system better.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Heavy rail backbone, with Bus Rapid Transit and a robust local bus system would do well.

See, now, I like Primal's idea. The property owners don't even have to give up their land, since they would be able to control whatever buildings replaced the old and filled in the grid.

Use the promise of MARTA stations to anchor initial developments, and then add more in as the stations come online.

I like primaltech's idea and vision for the Gwinnett Place area as well.

fourthwarden makes an excellent point that the existing owners of the properties in the Gwinnett Place area would not have to give up their land in a scenario where the area is transformed into a very large-scale high-density mixed-use TOD (Transit-Oriented Development) built on, over and around up to about four regional HRT (Heavy Rail Transit) stations (presumably MARTA or GRTA) in the Gwinnett Place area.

In this scenario, the existing property owners and a major transit agency (like MARTA and/or GRTA) would partner with each other to develop an area like Gwinnett Place into a very large-scale, high-density mixed-use TOD on the site of the current low-slung surface parking lot-dominated shopping centers....Including on the site of the current Gwinnett Place Mall which would be replaced by a large-scale, high-density mixed-use TOD built on, over and around a regional HRT station.

The revenues generated by the large-scale high-density mixed-use TOD in the Gwinnett Place area (revenues generated from residential and business leases and from the high amounts of transit ridership) would be used to pay for the implementation and continued operation of increased high-capacity transit service in the area.

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

That would work in places like midtown, but a development like what you are talking about would not work without support from people in Duluth, Lawrenceville, Snellville, Johns Creek, etc....and these people would have to drive there. So I think you have to be pretty smart about routing automobile traffic through or around a development like this. Maybe they could turn Old Norcross Road into an entrance/exit onto I-85.

I agree with your recommendation for a probable increase in automobile access to and from a new large-scale development/redevelopment in and of the Gwinnett Place area.

I also agree that it would be beneficial if a new interchange could be built at Old Norcross Road and I-85.

Though building new on and off ramps at Old Norcross Road and I-85 would most likely be a major challenge because of the lack of remaining right-of-way available to build new freeway ramps at that location. Interstate 85 was just recently expanded to 20 lanes through that area about a decade ago and that 20-lane roadway takes up the entire right-of-way of I-85 leaving no land to add new entrance and exit ramps at that particular location.

In addition to there being no additional right-of-way available on which to build new on and off ramps, a new interchange would also be too close in distance to the existing GA 316 and Pleasant Hill Road interchanges on I-85, leaving an inadequate amount of distance for traffic to merge on and transition off of I-85 between the three interchanges.....Because of the relatively close distance of the nearby GA 316 and Pleasant Hill Road interchanges on I-85, GDOT (the Georgia Department of Transportation) and the feds likely would not approve a new interchange on I-85 at Old Norcross Road.

Besides the challenges of attempting to place a new interchange at Old Norcross Road and I-85, the whole idea of redeveloping the Gwinnett Place area into a large-scale, high-density mixed-use TOD would be to encourage movement into, out of and within the redeveloped Gwinnett Place by way of alternatives to single-occupant vehicles....Alternatives like rail transit, bus transit, walking, bicycling, ridesharing, carpooling, etc, that attempt to limit the amount of additional vehicular trips (particularly single-occupant vehicle) into, out of and within the area.

Also, with a major superhighway like a 20-lane I-85 roadway and multiple multi-lane major surface routes like Pleasant Hill Road, Steve Reynolds Boulevard, Old Norcross Road and Satellite Boulevard already running through the Gwinnett Place area, access into and out of the area from other parts of the county and the region by automobile does not necessarily seem like it would be the biggest problem were the area to be redeveloped into a very large-scale high-density mixed-use TOD.

The roadway infrastructure already seems to exist to enable travel into and out of the Gwinnett Place area by automobile. A problem over the years seems to have been that there is a virtual near-total lack of transit infrastructure to enable local, country and regional travel into and out of a Gwinnett Place area that has struggled with traffic congestion during peak hours through the years.

[bfarley30]

Originally Posted by magnetar

Good luck with that! Self-driving tech will make riding in a car safer and less stressful but it's not going to make traffic flow any smoother if everybody still insists on traveling everywhere in a hermetically sealed pod.

Totally agree. What's the difference in 50,000 cars on the roads that YOU are driving versus 50,000 cars that drive themselves. Being stuck in traffic is being stuck in traffic! I'm completely lost on how self driving cars IMPROVE traffic. Maybe less stress... I can see. Pretty cool... absolutely. Less traffic... I don't think so.

[primaltech]

Gwinnett is built around houses with garages and lawns, in maze-like subdivisions, which have one outlet, onto a country road. It's built around the automobile. Period. Not people walking to a nearest bus stop on the nearest major artery. There aren't even sidewalks on most of the roads.

I've often thought the best transportation solution for Gwinnett, is subcompact cars. Like the Honda Fit, or even the Smart Car. Replace all the space-inefficient pickup trucks and SUV's in the county, with those little guys. Then you could fit more cars in a lane, and more (narrower) lanes on the roads, just by re-striping them. And smaller parking spots, with lots taking up less space. And slower, safer driving speeds.

Part B of the solution: get all the shipping tractor trailers off I-85, somehow. Maybe some new truck-only lanes, barrier divided from the car lanes.

[bfarley30]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

So, run the BRT routes out to those places.



Like I said, Heavy rail back-bone, with commuter rail as well, and a healthy layer of BRT (and ART and frequent buses, and local buses, and community circulators, and express buses, etc.).

Awesome map!! Definitely covers the county in full. Once you add local service (of course your map was only illustrating rapid transit but just saying) we are talking great mobility for Gwinnett!!

[ATLTJL]

Well, there are certainly a lot of great ideas for the future of Gwinnett county in this thread!

It must be difficult to get through, because I know the Gwinnett Place CID has wanted to do something about the mall for a really long time and really NO PROGRESS has been made. I mean, I get that it's private property so you can't dictate what happens to it and the CID really can only make recommendations to the city council. But I think Gwinnett county has huge potential (which is one reason I selected to live here) if it could just get out of its own way.

So much (hopefully) cool development is going on around downtown Duluth and a in some other areas, but I kind of fear that without a transit future, it's really not going to mean much of anything. Personally, I think that a MARTA line into town from Gwinnett Arena is a no-brainer. I'd also like to see some east/west rail from there....let it cut right through Johns Creek and hook up to an extended North line up at Avalon. Of course, I know that will NEVER be allowed to happen.

[Iconographer]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

You're underestimating the amount of white people who don't want transit because they're afraid Black Atlantans will take rail to their subdivisions and burglarize them.

I think that idea went the way of the last century.

[Iconographer]

Originally Posted by primaltech

They should just take the entire Gwinnett Place area, bulldoze that sad post-apocalyptic wasteland of a mall, as well as all the depressing generic chain crap and all the car dealerships around it, then build straight lined grid streets criss crossing everywhere for a few miles, then zone the entire CID area for maximum human scale density, like a new Downtown/Midtown Atlanta. Unlimited tower heights, the works. Zero surface parking lots allowed (which even Atlanta hasn't reached yet.) Nothing but complete streets everywhere. No setbacks, everything built right up on the street. No right hand turn lanes. Wide sidewalks. Special rules about wrapping parking decks, to make them not look like parking decks, and at least have retail at their base.

Office towers, apartments, condos, hotels, retail, parks, everything. And maybe even expand the special zone further out than that, gradually transitioning the density level. But just make it so that you can live in Gwinnett and walk to work (and everything else in your life). While also giving all the people out in the subdivisions, a shorter commute, to a closer job center area (and also a non-chain dining and retail and culture and nightlife scene.)

Build a new city, basically. I guess that's easier said than done. But why not just go for it? Gwinnett Place is a dump. A centrally located dump.

And obviously, then MARTA would be an absolute necessity. But they could start that transformation even before they have MARTA.

Yeah, pretty much everything you said.

Gwinnett Place mall to submit redevelopment plans to county

Gwinnett Place mall has a revised dream for a big remake

Frankly, I share Kempner's cynicism.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Gwinnett is built around houses with garages and lawns, in maze-like subdivisions, which have one outlet, onto a country road. It's built around the automobile. Period. Not people walking to a nearest bus stop on the nearest major artery. There aren't even sidewalks on most of the roads.

That's a good point that an outlying suburban county like Gwinnett is built around the automobile.

And it is most likely that most of Gwinnett will continue to be built around automobile usage.

But with the county's population having grown more than 12-fold since 1970 (Gwinnett's population has grown from about 72,000 in 1970 to about 900,000 today) and with the county having transitioned from a sparsely-populated and developed mostly rural exurban area to an increasingly very heavily-populated and developed post-suburban/urban area struggling to remain highly competitive in a global economy that values access to robust high-capacity transit, there will likely be no choice but for some key areas of Gwinnett County (particularly the most heavily and densely-developed parts of the county) to embrace transit-oriented development styles and transportation infrastructure.

I mean, Gwinnett looks to be fast-approaching a point where it possibly will be at increasing risk of seeing its long-touted quality-of-life slide and decline if the county continues to go without a robust high-capacity rail transit connection to Atlanta.

Gwinnett County basically seems to be approaching a point where it potentially may be at risk of losing some of its economic competitiveness and becoming an automobile-oriented slum if it can't attract and retain major employers who are attracted to high-capacity transit access.

An outlying post-suburban/suburban area like Gwinnett County is going to have to adapt to a much more transit-oriented economic environment in the 21st Century or seriously risk falling behind competitively over the long run.

Originally Posted by primaltech

I've often thought the best transportation solution for Gwinnett, is subcompact cars. Like the Honda Fit, or even the Smart Car. Replace all the space-inefficient pickup trucks and SUV's in the county, with those little guys. Then you could fit more cars in a lane, and more (narrower) lanes on the roads, just by re-striping them. And smaller parking spots, with lots taking up less space. And slower, safer driving speeds.

You make a good point that more road space would be available if everyone drove subcompact cars.

But this is a free market economy and democratic society where people cannot be forced to purchase and use products (including subcompact cars) that they don't want to.

More people seem to have been buying subcompact vehicles in recent years than might have been in the past, but barring a dramatic and devastating spike in the price of oil and gas (a commodity which seems to be in abundant supply at the moment, hence the sub-$2/gallon gas prices at times), there are going to be many people who will continue to buy larger vehicles like trucks and SUV's for various reasons....Various reasons which they don't have to justify because this is a free-market economy and a democratic society where people are free to buy whatever type of vehicle they like (big, medium or small) if they can afford it.

Originally Posted by primaltech

Part B of the solution: get all the shipping tractor trailers off I-85, somehow. Maybe some new truck-only lanes, barrier divided from the car lanes.

I understand your desire to want to get all of the tractor trailers off of a major roadway like I-85, which often seems to be severely congested, particularly during peak hours and rush hours.

But major roadways like I-85 are Interstate superhighways, which means that they were designed by the federal government, specifically to carry extremely large volumes of interstate traffic (like 18-wheelers/tractor-trailers, out-of-state/regional/transcontinental traffic, etc).

As the feds see it, it is the local commuter traffic that gets in the way of the regional, out-of-town, out-of-state, state-to-state, interstate and transcontinental traffic that Interstate superhighways were intended to handle first and foremost in the minds of federal highway planners.

I agree that it would be nice if we could separate automobile traffic from tractor-trailer traffic. But building truck-only lanes on an Interstate superhighway that has already been expanded to anywhere from between 12 to 20 lanes likely would be a very costly expense that would be difficult to justify.

(...I-85 was expanded to between 12 and 20 lanes to handle both more local/regional commuter traffic and increased interstate traffic through an increasingly heavily developed and populated area in Gwinnett County...)

(...Also, with much of the I-85 right-of-way built-out to the point where the roadway can no longer be expanded horizontally through much of Gwinnett County, particularly south of the Old Peachtree Road interchange, the only place to build new truck-only lanes would be vertically over the existing roadway....Something that would be so expensive that it would most likely require tolls to be added to the entire roadway to execute....Because of increasing fuel-efficiency and because of the increasing popularity of alternative fuel vehicles (like electric vehicles), tolls on all superhighway lanes seem to be an increasingly definite possibility at sometime in the future, but we are not there yet, politically.)

Another reason it would be difficult to get all tractor-trailers off of Interstate 85 is because Gwinnett County is a very heavily-developed county with much commercial and industrial development that generates much tractor-trailer traffic on I-85.

Each shopping center, restaurant, gas station, factory, warehouse, distribution center, grocery store, school, office building, etc, alone generates multiple truck trips each day. Add up the hundreds (if not thousands) of commercial and industrial facilities in the county that each generate multiple truck trips and one can begin to an idea of just how much truck traffic a county like Gwinnett generates alone....Not to mention all of the truck traffic that is generated by commercial and industrial development throughout metro Atlanta, Georgia, the Southeastern U.S. (of which the Atlanta area is a major ground transportation hub), the Sunbelt, the Gulf and Atlantic coasts, etc.

Basically we can't get the tractor-trailer traffic off of a major roadway like I-85 because a major purpose of Interstate superhighways like I-85 is to generate economic activity (and the truck traffic that comes along with it) to previously largely impoverished areas like Gwinnett County, greater metro Atlanta, Georgia and the Southeastern U.S.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

I personally think that you may be underestimating the number of white people in Gwinnett county who are sick of sitting in traffic and want to attract quality employers and would therefore vote for MARTA.

Originally Posted by Ant131531

You're underestimating the amount of white people who don't want transit because they're afraid Black Atlantans will take rail to their subdivisions and burglarize them.

Originally Posted by LovinDecatur

I think that idea went the way of the last century.

Unfortunately, the bias by many older conservative white suburban voters who dislike the idea of MARTA in outlying counties like Gwinnett because they are afraid that black Atlantans will take rail transit to their neighborhoods and burglarize them does not necessarily seem to have gone the way of the last century as much as many of us might like for it to have gone.

That continuing anti-MARTA bias by many older conservative white suburban voters is one of the major reasons why outlying counties like Gwinnett have yet to approve of joining and paying for MARTA rail transit service despite a county like Gwinnett having a population of 900,000 people.

But while the part of the electorate that strongly dislikes the idea of MARTA being expanded into the county continues to be dominate in the Gwinnett political scene, the part of the electorate that is much more accepting of MARTA expansion into the county seems to be growing at a much faster rate than the long-dominant anti-MARTA faction because of the ongoing demographic changes in the county.

The point seems to be fast-approaching where a MARTA expansion referendum would be likely to be approved by the voters in a Gwinnett County where non-Hispanic whites (who once were 96% of Gwinnett's population) now make up less than 40% of the county's population.

Though by no means should anyone assume that the approval of a MARTA expansion referendum would be an automatic thing. Pro-MARTA expansion advocates would still have to do much work to make sure that they turned out enough voters to ensure passage of a MARTA expansion referendum in a county in Gwinnett where MARTA has traditionally long been rejected by a dominant portion of the electorate.