Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yep, people adapt. I am pretty sure I called out people adjusting when they drive as one of the ways the feared "traffic apocalypse" would be avoided multiple times before.
Yeah...adjusting when I drive. It's not a positive. I lose a lot of my day to it. That's not positive, prosperous, safe, or anything else you purport.
Quote:
People are nowhere near as "dependent" on our wide roads as you portray. If you close lanes or even just ask people to pay a congestion toll they will adjust with minimal issues.
That's funny. I've been taking Uber and Left a bit recently, unrelated to the closure. In every instance so far, the driver has brought up the closure and how many issues it is creating. They talk to hundreds of people, and they have nothing good to say. You and maybe a couple of others on here are literally the only people I've heard anywhere saying that it's not really created any issues. Literally. I have not heard a single other person speak of it in a positive manner. Just you. But, then again, you live in a bubble downtown and don't actually have a clue what goes on up there.
Quote:
Of course "traffic" for some has been affected. Especially if you are car dependant and expect to rapidly get through that particular area rapidly. But overall the impact has not been bad. A lot of intown drivers have had it a lot easier because the overall peak volume of traffic has been reduced. More people are taking alternatives like MARTA or adjusting their hours.
Right. I now have to leave for work about 30-45 minutes earlier, and get home later, leaving me less time with my family. And every road I've been on in the northern half of Atlanta has had far heavier traffic volumes than usual. We went out for lunch the other day, and I stupidly chose a place that we love on Clairmont. It would have normally been about a 75 minute round trip including lunch. It was 2.5 hours. So, I guess your real definition is...it's not bad because all the traffic is just diverted to other roads and it takes people much longer to get places and they have to leave earlier and arrive later, but that's not an issue.
Quote:
Safety and quality of life should come first. Being able to fly through all neighborhoods in Atlanta at 50+mph for free at any time of day does not trump that.
WTF?? But, you support closing the road that keeps those vehicles out of the neighborhoods? Now, because of the closure, people are flying through the neighborhoods as their alternatives. Seriously...are you high?? You are directly contradicting your own argument. You don't want people flying through neighborhoods, so you want to close or minimize the larger roads, pushing people onto neighborhood roads. It's seriously like listening to our President talk.
Quote:
Of course there were ill effects. But there were positive effects too. And the net effect was really not that bad.
I have not seen a single positive effect. Every road has far more traffic and commute times have gotten far longer. Woooo...more people are taking MARTA. Woopadedoo.
Quote:
And that is really what it comes down to. First off, how bad are they negative effects really, and are those negative effects not worth the positives of lives saved, more economic prosperity, and improved quality of life for residents. The answer more often than not, is that is a trade that is well worth it.
Do you think any lives have been saved because 85 is shut down? No. In fact, it has probably endangered more lives because 250,000 vehicles worth of people have had to find other ways to get around, including neighborhood streets. I can assure you, the neighborhood streets that we take to get to my kids school are now clogged. THIS is what you count as safer?? No...your vision has pushed traffic into kids' neighborhoods.
And what sort of "economic prosperity" do you think closing anything has caused? It's created longer commutes, and more lost time at home or at work. There's nothing positive about it for the vast, vast majority of affected people. And the people whose neighborhoods are now clogged with cut-thru traffic probably don't feel very prosperous now, either. This is straight-up right-wing talk right here. You may want to mention something about patriotism and post a picture of an eagle.
Quote:
No one would suggest a deliberate closure of a few hundred feet of the 12+ lanes of I-85 alone would be a good idea.
You created a thread with that specific title. Like...the day it happened. In fact, you said "It is too bad this was not closed as part of a planned, permanent closure".
Quote:
It is really about the worse case.
For once, you're right...it has been about the worse case.
Quote:
But the negatives even of that closure have not been that bad on the whole.
Overall, have they been a complete disaster practically shutting down the city? No, but no one said that in the first place (except you putting those words into peoples' mouths). Has it been good or even "not bad at all"? Not even a little bit. It sucks. A lot.
Quote:
So we should be more ready than ever to reevaluate other, more deliberate closures like giving lanes to bikes and peds in a historic downtown. And thankfully even GDOT seems to be coming around to that idea.
So, with this...is all that street parking going away, too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
What are you on about? State (and U.S.) highways run through the center of towns all the time, with the explicit intention of supporting and serving those towns, not only for commuters into the town, but also for locals.
There are plenty of places where the highway is the main street. Emphasis on street. The road isn't being shut down, it's just being treated like the downtown main street that it actually is for Avondale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth
Hyperbolic rhetoric. A road diet is not a road shutdown.
Jesus. Apparently, I need to be exceptionally specific. You both knew what I meant. Or, maybe not. Tough to tell around here sometimes. To clarify: I know they aren't shutting the road down, but they are reducing its capacity somewhat. And the question was...if a town center builds up around an existing state highway, should the residents of that town now control the ability of that state highway to operate effectively? In such a case, it would be moronic to build your town center on such a road. I don't really know the history of Avondale Estates (nor do I particularly care), and really only go out there a couple of times year to go to Palookaville. I will see how this road changes things there, and might just not return if it creates more havoc.
To clarify: I know they aren't shutting the road down, but they are reducing its capacity somewhat. And the question was...if a town center builds up around an existing state highway, should the residents of that town now control the ability of that state highway to operate effectively? In such a case, it would be moronic to build your town center on such a road. I don't really know the history of Avondale Estates (nor do I particularly care), and really only go out there a couple of times year to go to Palookaville. I will see how this road changes things there, and might just not return if it creates more havoc.
That's a good question about whether or not the residents of a town should be able to control the operations of a state highway that runs through their town.
In the eyes of the governments of most states (like Georgia), local residents and local governments are often given a very strong (if not dominant) voice in determining how state-owned and maintained highways operate through the centers of incorporated areas.
State government (by way of a state transportation agency like GDOT) particularly often gives much deference to municipal governments over how a state-owned/maintained highway operates through more heavily-developed village-like downtowns and neighborhood areas.
State transportation agencies like GDOT will often let local governments set lower speed limits and install increased pedestrian facilities (like crosswalks, wider sidewalks, etc) where desired on state highways that run through incorporated areas.
It also should be noted that the existence of Avondale Estates' historic downtown village area predates by decades the status of this stretch of U.S. Highway 278/GA Highway 10 as a major surface commuter route into and out of Central Atlanta.
Avondale Estates was founded as a city in 1924 but had existed as a small rural village since the 1890's.
This stretch of roadway was nothing more than a dirt and gravel path through a sparsely inhabited rural area when Avondale Estates popped up as a small rural village (by the name of Ingleside) in the 1890's, and this stretch of roadway was still nothing more than a two-lane rural highway when Avondale Estates was incorporated as a city in 1924.
No one had any idea that the stretch of road in question would one day be a heavily-used major surface commuter route into and out of the central part of a heavily-developed international city/metro Atlanta when Avondale Estates was originally established as a small rural village in the 1890's and then as an incorporated city in the 1920's.
By no means is Avondale Estates the only city with a downtown village area that was established on state highways before those roadways evolved and transitioned into major surface commuter routes.
There are many cities and towns that were established on rural roadways that eventually became state highways that eventually transitioned into major surface commuter routes, including many metro Atlanta cities and towns like Marietta, Lawrenceville, Decatur, Alpharetta, Cumming, etc.
And like a state transportation agency like GDOT is working with the City of Avondale Estates to make the state-owned and maintained U.S. Highway 278/GA Highway 10 a roadway that is much more accommodating to non-automobile traffic through its downtown village area, GDOT has also worked with (and continues to work with) the local governments of those other metro Atlanta cities and towns to make the state-owned/maintained/controlled highways in those areas more accommodating to non-automobile traffic through their growing and revitalizing downtown village areas.
What the state is doing by working with the City of Avondale Estates to put US 278/GA 10 on a road diet through Downtown Avondale Estates is just an extension of what is going on with urban streets throughout metro Atlanta and in many cities and towns throughout the U.S. which is working with local governments to calm traffic on busy streets and roads to make them more accommodating to modes of transportation other than just automobiles alone through urban neighborhoods.
So? Are you suggesting that localities should just bend over and take anything the state tells them to do? Sounds like "big government" to me if there ever were such a thing.
GDOT isn't suddenly building a 4 lane highway through the middle of Avondale Estates. Its been there for decades. Again, you are totally missing the point.
GDOT isn't suddenly building a 4 lane highway through the middle of Avondale Estates. Its been there for decades. Again, you are totally missing the point.
The road didn't end up there by fairy magic, and presumably, the city was fine with it going through at some point.
So, the road is two-lane on the east side Clarendon, and reduces back to two-lane about a mile and a half west. So really, all this is doing is making that mile and a half a two-lane road and removing some of the turn lanes from the small downtown area. Will probably create some backups, push a few cars onto the side streets, and drive some people away from going there, but certainly not the end of the world.
The road didn't end up there by fairy magic, and presumably, the city was fine with it going through at some point.
So, the road is two-lane on the east side Clarendon, and reduces back to two-lane about a mile and a half west. So really, all this is doing is making that mile and a half a two-lane road and removing some of the turn lanes from the small downtown area. Will probably create some backups, push a few cars onto the side streets, and drive some people away from going there, but certainly not the end of the world.
This will prove to be dead wrong.
I'll give you one example: Downtown Tucker. They used to have a four lane road as a Main Street, and the area was a ghost town littered with shuttered businesses. Look at it now that they've reduced it to a two lane road: the entire street is lined with restaurants and businesses, Matthews Cafeteria has expanded their hours and now serve weekend brunch, etc. This is not because people have been driven away by the road diet. Quite the opposite, actually. Road diets in cases like this help create places where people enjoy spending time. Wide sidewalks, al fresco dining, etc. was not possible before. Now it is, and people like it. The traffic is similar to before, except now, instead of people passing through, they're stopping, getting out of the cars, and spending time and money.
I'll give you one example: Downtown Tucker. They used to have a four lane road as a Main Street, and the area was a ghost town littered with shuttered businesses. Look at it now that they've reduced it to a two lane road: the entire street is lined with restaurants and businesses, Matthews Cafeteria has expanded their hours and now serve weekend brunch, etc. This is not because people have been driven away by the road diet. Quite the opposite, actually. Road diets in cases like this help create places where people enjoy spending time. Wide sidewalks, al fresco dining, etc. was not possible before. Now it is, and people like it. The traffic is similar to before, except now, instead of people passing through, they're stopping, getting out of the cars, and spending time and money.
How is this not what we want?
Because to John Q. Public, a U.S. and/or state highway designation means "bow down to automobiles." Not even GDOT believes that tripe anymore.
Because to John Q. Public, a U.S. and/or state highway designation means "bow down to automobiles." Not even GDOT believes that tripe anymore.
And this is why there's a distinction between Highway and Freeway.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
