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But really— why is it not a fair comparison? Primaltech opened the door to discussion of a far-outer loop in areas that have a lot of scenic beauty and a lot of resistance to new freeways.
The fact that it is designed for tourism makes it very relevant to this discussion, because the areas this proposed outer loop would go through have specifically said that they don't want an "economically functional" road— which is why primal included only a handful of exits along the entire length. Drivers who would truly want a "bypass" would be looking to stay completely out of the metro and its urban freeways. Pair something like the colonial parkway with the truck bypasses that already exist, and you've got a minimally obtrusive scenic parkway that is both functional as a bypass, and politically viable for the areas it would be slated to go through.
Yeah. I mean it would only be like, what, 60-70ft wide or so, including the shoulders? Surely one new road of approximately that width is not going to ruin the rural Georgia countryside, which goes on for hundreds of miles. Especially if they dig it in a low trench as much as possible.
Surely it's not the roadway itself that would be much of a problem, but rather the development they fear would come with it. But that part should be preventable, via it being a true bypass without local exits, and of course, zoning, and what the counties approve for development or not.
Amicalola Falls was brought up, but that's like at least 10 miles north of Dawsonville. Surely you could build one single road that cut north of Dawsonville and north of Lake Lanier, and also south of Amicacola, Dahlonega, and the national forest.
I don't get it with Georgia. Transportation is like the least partisan/polarized issue that we even have, and they still can never get anything done with it. There seems to be a rule where, like, if any rural people oppose anything, their word is worth its weight in gold, and they don't have to propose an equivalent alternative to move the traffic demands. 'Oh, you need a new highway further out? Tough break, go double deck 285 and 400 in Sandy Springs, and turn all that into even more of an eyesore monstrosity. We never go down there, so we don't care.'
'Oh, you want useful transit for your 6 million people metro? Well, we will strongly oppose any state taxes going towards anything of the sort. If it's not Jesus, guns, or Jesus holding a gun, we don't support it.'
Simply not true. Atlanta is popular with everyone. I know 15 people alone who moved here last year from Boston, LA, Denver, and Michigan. None of them are minorities. Atlanta has been and will always be one of the hottest cities to move to for everyone. It will NEVER slow down. You don’t think crime is rampant in those other cities? Lol.
It will NEVER slow down. You don’t think crime is rampant in those other cities? Lol.
Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland and Philly have entered the chat to let you know we all thought the same too 60 years ago...
What we have is a state legislature that is anti-Atlanta, and therefore, any efforts to fund and improve transit in the metro gets shot down. We're nearly 30 years out from the original push for an Outer Perimeter, and there's a whole new generation of people who were born here or moved here, and I wonder if opposition would still be harsh.
The already-misguided 2012 Atlanta regional T-SPLOST referendum went down in flames by a margin of 62-38 in part because of growing public paranoia that the referendum was really a back door way for officials to revive the unpopular proposed Outer Perimeter superhighway... This was after the inclusion on the T-SPLOST project list of a controversial highway expansion project that was proposed to be built in the abandoned right-of-way of the late 1990’s-early 2000’s proposed Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway in Gwinnett County.
So, one can infer that opposition to an Outer Perimeter superhighway proposal likely would still be harsh, especially with regional and national environmentalists (including the Sierra Club, which led the way in successfully opposing and defeating the Outer Perimeter superhighway proposal in the early 2000’s) leading the opposition to the project along with local residents and landowners.
We have to remember that a proposed road like the Outer Perimeter superhighway would have to be built somewhere, with the problem being that no one in the suburbs or exurbs (especially suburbanites and exurbanites of affluent means) wants such a road to be built remotely near where they live.
Metro Atlantans and North Georgians might generally support such an Outer Perimeter roadway being built, but just not anywhere remotely within several miles of where they live.
Amicalola Falls was brought up, but that's like at least 10 miles north of Dawsonville. Surely you could build one single road that cut north of Dawsonville and north of Lake Lanier, and also south of Amicacola, Dahlonega, and the national forest.
The problem with that route that you propose (north of Dawsonville; south of Amicalola Falls, Dahlonega and Chattahoochee National Forest) is that that corridor has many affluent and well-connected residents (including in affluent high foothills communities like Big Canoe and Bent Tree) who have the financial resources and political connections to not only fight but easily quash any proposals for an unwanted large-scale road construction project through their beloved North Georgia Blue Ridge Mountains foothills region.
(The Big Canoe and Bent Tree communities are adjacent to a beloved wilderness area, the Eagle’s Rest wilderness park area which surrounds Mount Oglethorpe.)
Heck, much of that area is currently represented in the Georgia Legislature by Georgia House Speaker David Ralston, who is one of the absolute most powerful individuals in Georgia politics and who most likely would have the power to singularly block the construction of a highly controversial road that his constituents most assuredly would bitterly oppose and be willing to fight to the death to stop with the aid of regional and national environmentalists and often road construction-averse metro Atlantans.
Yeah, well, I think it's so stupid, because there are literally hundreds of miles of rural Georgia wilderness out there, and they can't spare 100 feet, so that an over 6.1 million metro (almost 7 million combined area), can have a bypass loop.
It would be one thing if all the traffic madness and inadequate transportation system was driving increased widespread support for mass transit expansion and passenger rail, but it doesn't seem to really be doing that either.
They want to drive everywhere in life, and they oppose building any roads.
Born 2 Roll, do you believe that a scenic bypass like the one I pictured on the last page would be just as politically untenable for residents in that area, as one constructed like I-285?
Yeah, well, I think it's so stupid, because there are literally hundreds of miles of rural Georgia wilderness out there, and they can't spare 100 feet, so that an over 6.1 million metro (almost 7 million combined area), can have a bypass loop.
It would be one thing if all the traffic madness and inadequate transportation system was driving increased widespread support for mass transit expansion and passenger rail, but it doesn't seem to really be doing that either.
They want to drive everywhere in life, and they oppose building any roads.
But that area (north of Dawsonville, south of Amicalola Falls) is not just any rural Georgia wilderness. That area is North Georgia Blue Ridge Mountains foothills wilderness, which is an area that many local residents, landowners, homeowners, regional environmentalists and national environmentalists are understandably very fiercely protective of for its scenic beauty and the immense value that it adds to the state’s quality-of-life.
I personally support upgraded and expanded road infrastructure, but I also understand that proposing to build a new superhighway loop through pristine Southern Appalachian Mountains foothills wilderness is likely to generate a very strong reaction from both locals and many non-locals alike.
And while using the argument that they should allow a 100-foot-wide strip of their beautiful wilderness area to be cut for the benefit of metro Atlanta motorists and commuters is not likely to be an argument that gets very far with local residents as well as many environmentalists, it probably should be noted that that area is also very popular with many metro Atlantans who frequently visit the area and have second homes in the area (including in aforementioned affluent foothills communities like Big Canoe and Bent Tree).
Even though it at least theoretically would be metro Atlanta motorists who would stand to benefit the most from the construction of a new east-west Outer Perimeter superhighway through the area, many metro Atlantans do not appear to support the idea of that type of large-scale road construction project happening through a North Georgia Blue Ridge Mountains foothills wilderness area that is deeply beloved by many metro Atlanta residents.
The idea of building a Northern Outer Perimeter superhighway through the scenic foothills of North Georgia just miles away from Amicalola Falls is an idea that has much support in online forums like these, but in reality such road construction ideals are a political non-starter because of the popularity of that North Georgia Mountains foothills wilderness area.
Born 2 Roll, do you believe that a scenic bypass like the one I pictured on the last page would be just as politically untenable for residents in that area, as one constructed like I-285?
Unfortunately, that type of scenic bypass that you mentioned likely would be politically untenable because locals and visitors alike consider many of the existing roads in the area to already be highly enjoyable scenic routes.
Georgia State Route 136 between Talking Rock on the west and the Dawsonville area on the east immediately comes to mind as a notable foothills scenic route.
It’s an area with numerous points of interest, including nature preserves, lakes, waterfalls, resorts, wineries, campgrounds and tourist farms.
And it’s a popular getaway area/region for metro Atlantans, so proposing to build any type of road through that corridor, even a seemingly smaller-scale road with limited impact, likely would not even be supported by affluent metro Atlantans who adore the beauty and outdoor amenities that the area has to offer.
Proposing to build any type of new road through that area is a non-starter while Georgia House Speaker David Ralston (the 2nd-most powerful man in Georgia state government who represents the Big Canoe and Bent Tree affluent foothills residential communities) is in office and will continue to be long after he leaves his powerful position as speaker.
The problem with that route that you propose (north of Dawsonville; south of Amicalola Falls, Dahlonega and Chattahoochee National Forest) is that that corridor has many affluent and well-connected residents (including in affluent high foothills communities like Big Canoe and Bent Tree) who have the financial resources and political connections to not only fight but easily quash any proposals for an unwanted large-scale road construction project through their beloved North Georgia Blue Ridge Mountains foothills region.
(The Big Canoe and Bent Tree communities are adjacent to a beloved wilderness area, the Eagle’s Rest wilderness park area which surrounds Mount Oglethorpe.)
Heck, much of that area is currently represented in the Georgia Legislature by Georgia House Speaker David Ralston, who is one of the absolute most powerful individuals in Georgia politics and who most likely would have the power to singularly block the construction of a highly controversial road that his constituents most assuredly would bitterly oppose and be willing to fight to the death to stop with the aid of regional and national environmentalists and often road construction-averse metro Atlantans.
Yeah, that is too far north/close to the nature of the Appalachians. It should be along the Hwy 20 corridor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
I mean, if they could just get the whole length of GA-20 (from I-75 to GA-316) up to a consistent 3 travel lanes in each direction (not counting any turn lanes), then that would basically, approximately function as a northern arc/ outer perimeter.
They'd have to build a new section of roadway to get around downtown Cumming, but other than that, it looks very possible in theory. Some of it in Gwinnett already is 3 travel lanes, and the sections that are 2 lanes, they should have plenty of space to widen. Same goes for the stretch in Forsyth east of 400, there's plenty of corridor space there.
Historic downtown Cumming area, you'd have to have a bypass around that, and then a lot of widening between Canton and Cumming, but it looks like they've already started on that.
To get around historic Canton, you'd probably just have it be shared/co-signed with I-575 for a small bit there, then it should be just a matter of widening between Cartersville and Canton, and then build a new proper freeway type interchange with I-75, about a mile north of the existing GA-20 exit.
Minimize left turns and stop lights as much as possible on it, and maybe add in a few new grade separations and re-designed interchanges where possible, and call it a day.
This is just my idea but it may complicate things, and create an eyesore like the future 400, but there should be special lanes (one or two in each direction) that are express Peach Pass toll lanes in the center between two lanes in each direction for general purpose traffic (including trucks) with the regular stops for local businesses. From I-575 at Exit 19 there can be a separate exit to enter the express lanes, and one for the local businesses like the shopping centers on either side of Cumming Hwy in Canton. The express lanes really only need exits for Macedonia, Hwy 369, Sawnee Mountain area, and Downtown Cumming. Around Sawnee Mtn and DT Cumming, the lanes can take a different route towards 400 from the original HWY 20. It will be a little tricky but I'm thinking in the SE direction along Chamblee Gap Rd , then by Cumming Fairgrounds and rejoin HWY 20 (Buford Rd) where it crosses 400.
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