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Old 12-13-2006, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,289 posts, read 3,739,426 times
Reputation: 743

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If it's true that
Quote:
... blacks renting an apartment, in white communities, may be problematic.
because
Quote:
Some partment managers, who perceived a caller to be black inquiring about an apartment, told the caller that none were available. If the same apartment manager perceived the caller to be white, apartments were readily available.
... then the motivation is clear.

So why is it
Quote:
... misguided thinking to assume housing prices go up to keep minorities out.
?

The motivation is the same, even if practice is different.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:56 PM
 
148 posts, read 627,498 times
Reputation: 102
Default I don't follow your reasoning

Backfist,

There's lots of tools at one's disposal to discriminate against someone wishing to purchase a house or lease an apartment.

However, raising housing prices across the board with the expressed purpose and intention of keeping a certain class of people out of the buying process is not happening. Market prices are a by-product of supply and demand.

For example in California four or five years ago, many sellers were receiving multiple offers above list price. It was not unusual for a house listed at $900,000 to sell $100,000 above list price. Many homes were sold within a matter of hours or days. The demand for a house was huge, and the supply was limited. Today, that's not the case across most of the country.

I'm sure the vast, vast majority of real estate agents and apartment managers follow the exact letter of the law, and do not discriminate. If you do discriminate on a regular basis, it's eventually going to be costly both professionally and financially. Will these penalties deter some people from discriminating? Probably not!

For whatever reason, some sales agents may not show other homes that are for sale. I do know of one person that was shown only two model homes that were for sale, when in fact four or five model homes were for sale. I'm sure, too, some apartment managers do not show certain apartments that are for rent.

There's a multitude of reasons why real estate agents or apartment managers purposely discriminate against someone. The color of one's skin is obvious; religion is obvious; one's sexual orientation is obvious. Other less obvious reasons may be at work.

Maybe most of the residents in a new upscale subdvision drive $50,000 cars, and here's a prospective buyer driving a rusted, 1972 Ford Torino. Maybe the prospective buyer chews tobacco. Maybe the prospective buyer says he has 12 children, while most of the residents in the subdivision are empty-nesters.

Z
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Old 12-14-2006, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,289 posts, read 3,739,426 times
Reputation: 743
I understand what you're trying to say, Zelia. The simplicity of supply and demand. But as you know, nothing is as simple as it appears. Nor are things always as innocent as they appear.

What's usually missing from the simplicity of supply-and-demand is the question of why? Why is the demand so high and why is the supply so limited? Sure there are many reasons. But I've been around long enough to know that the desire for exclusion is often one reason. Remember: this is America, and this is Georgia. Exclusion has existed on a continuum since inception. When I say continuum, I mean from the beginning through today, exclusion has existed on a continual basis in one form or another. Sometimes blatant and overt, but most often subtle and innocent-looking, often with a smile and handshake.

What's encouraging is that people are aware of this. Real estate professionals are under constant watch for ethnic and racial steering. Metro Atlanta is one of those areas constantly being monitored because the steering is so prevalent. Mortgage lender practices are being reviewed more as well. And individuals are more and more wary about an increasing lack of diversity in our neigborhoods, and business and political leaders are starting to weigh in.

You mentioned California's red hot market real estate market a few years ago. I was actually there; I know of what you speak. But one thing about California is that as inflated as the prices are, people of all colors and backgrounds are shelling out the cash to buy. Why? Because, for the most part, Californians have gotten past the urge to segregate. Georgians? Well, we're not there yet, but we're working on it.
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Old 12-14-2006, 09:12 PM
 
148 posts, read 627,498 times
Reputation: 102
Default Exclusion

Backfist,

I must admit that the housing supply and demand market forces may be created artificially. A city may take steps to exclude new people from moving in. The broad heading of "people" includes ALL PEOPLE, though.

Many attractive, desirable cities adopt "slow growth" policies. The mayor and the city council generally think along the following lines:

"Buster, we moved here first and we want to keep our utopian city the way it is. We've got a nice, wonderful city and it's going to stay nice and wonderful. Therefore, we're going to limit the number of new sewer lines, the number of building lots, and mandate tougher building codes. "

When these types of artifical politicies are strictly enforced, housing prices soar.

Z
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Old 12-15-2006, 06:32 AM
Noc
 
731 posts, read 1,166,096 times
Reputation: 228
Sounds like what they do with Historical districts.
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Old 12-15-2006, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,289 posts, read 3,739,426 times
Reputation: 743
Quote:
Backfist,

I must admit that the housing supply and demand market forces may be created artificially.
Yes, that's all I'm saying. And I think Jeweloflight is essentially saying the same thing: markets can be manipulated. Some manipulation is soley for profit, and some for social reasons.

So when I continue to hear that steering by real estate agents remains a problem, then I have to wonder if market manipulation--at least in some areas--is going on for the same reason. It's definitely a relevant question.
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:16 AM
 
Location: 30328
425 posts, read 1,200,762 times
Reputation: 145
Agent manipulation is one thing but the buyer ultimately has the choice of walking away. In other words, it is about supply and demand in the purest sense. What backfist has introduced was another variable that will be impossible to quantify, and it pushes the matter into a socio-economic realm which we currently do not have answers for.

I would be open to an idea that all market transactions are manipulated and that the theory of supply and demand can be thrown out the window. But the market has a way to adjusting itself in the long run and the theory is often validated throughout the history.
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,289 posts, read 3,739,426 times
Reputation: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgpill View Post
Agent manipulation is one thing but the buyer ultimately has the choice of walking away. In other words, it is about supply and demand in the purest sense. What backfist has introduced was another variable that will be impossible to quantify, and it pushes the matter into a socio-economic realm which we currently do not have answers for.

I would be open to an idea that all market transactions are manipulated and that the theory of supply and demand can be thrown out the window. But the market has a way to adjusting itself in the long run and the theory is often validated throughout the history.
Precisely why the issue needs to be first exposed, and then debated, and then resolved. Once upon a time, the vast majority of society thought that it made good "market" sense to exclude almost 20% of the population from economic opportunity. Go figure.

Further, I would submit that, as far as this particular issue is concerned, "market adjustments" won't occur in the abstract. Such a "market adjustment" can't happen unless and until society chooses to be pro-active. So many evils in our country's history were perpetrated on the basis of economics. This mindset simply made it easier to ignore the underlying immorality. But now that we know better, we have to act better.
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, Georgia(Vinings)
421 posts, read 1,677,037 times
Reputation: 318
I am Black and I own a home in the lily white community of Vinings in Cobb County. I would say that the people here have the same viewpoints as the people who live in Sandy Springs and Dunwoody, they don't want to associate with people that aren't of their economic means. They accept Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians fine, so long as they can afford to live in the neighborhood and maintain a high class lifestyle. I chose to move to a white neighborhood instead of a Black one because I wanted to be close to my kids private schools. The upper income Black neighborhoods are quite far from the Buckhead private schools. The location is amazing though and my neighbors have never made me feel unwanted. I think among upper class whites classism always outwieghs racism.

And as for the middle to upper income Blacks who decide to purchase homes in all Black communities like Cascade and Sandtown, I can definately see where they are coming from. Often times, a successful Black person will be looked at with astonishment from his affluent northside neighbors, as if they can't believe he could actually afford to live in their neighborhood. The Black family ends up feeling like they need not play into any steryotypes whites commonly think of Blacks, for that might cause tension. Whites don't understand upper class Black society and traditions and most are shocked that we've even had an upper class since the late 1800s. To avoid all this many decide to move into upscale Black communities where they don't have to explain their successes to anyone.

Many Blacks also choose to move into upscale neighborhoods with majority Black populations because it allows their children see positive role models everyday. When the news and other media portrays the Black race as a people of ignorance prone to violence, a young child who doesn't know any better might believe that that is all he can strive for. According to the media, whites are rich and Blacks are poor. Living in Cascasde, Sandtown, and parts of Stone Mountain and Lithonia helps parents to debunk those steryotypes by showing them the opposite everyday. Atlanta has the second highest concentration of middle class and upper class Black Americans in the country but you'd never know it by watching television.

Also, Blacks move into these areas because they get more for their money. Many don's see the logic in moving into Dunwoody Sandy Springs, Alpharetta, and East Cobb just to integrate the neighborhoods when they can get more house for the money in their own neighborhoods. The Civil Rights Movement was a movement fought so that we could have the choice and ability to move where we want. The truth is, like most whites, most blacks feel most comfortable around people of thier own race and in their own tax bracket. $400,000 can buy an older ranch or two story home built in the 80s in Sandy Springs and most likely the home will lack any of the modern amenities buyers look for today. For that amount of money in Sandtown and Cascade one can buy a 4000 square foot home with a full basement on a half acre lot in a swim/tennis community. Imagine what you can get down there for $700,000 or one million dollars.

White people no longer have the right or the power to exclude us from moving in their neighborhoods so I will not tolerate those responses for why Sandy Springs and Dunwoody have remained so white. The apartments in the area are not upscale but the houses are. SO...of course a man paying $800 a month to rent a two bedroom can not afford the new million dollar home being built up the road, and that is whehter he is Black, white, Asian, or Hispanic.

Also, for those of you whites who are so upset about the status of Atlanta's self-segregation, what is keeping you from moving into middle to upper income Black communities in the areas I have listed? Just like white communities of similar income levels they have low crime rates, the same shopping and dining options for the most part, etc. And Woodward Academy is on the southside of town if you wanted a close by private schooll to send your children to.
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:32 PM
 
35 posts, read 139,452 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoveDiva View Post
My take:

I want to live someplace where I can easily get things I can use on a regular basis--for example: hair products, food items, etc.

If I lived someplace say, Sandy Springs, how easy would it be for me to get a can of Mizani Oil Sheen in a pinch? Would I have to drive over 20 minutes to get it?

If I wanted to cook curried goat and callaloo for dinner, how easy would it be for me to get it? Can I go to the local Caribbean grocery to pick it up, or would I have to drive to Marietta/Stone Mountain, etc. to purchase these items??


I say this to say that these items aren't readily available in a non-diverse or majority black or Caribbean neighborhood. This is some of the things I considered when looking for a home and I am sure that others like me think of the SAME THING. I'd say it's less about race and more about culture.
This is true I sooo agree and to break up cultural tastes is alot deeper then demographics....Just my 2cents
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