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Old 10-26-2017, 03:25 PM
bu2
 
23,876 posts, read 14,674,294 times
Reputation: 12663

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cparker73 View Post
The very motivation of placing these monuments was either to whitewash history and present The Lost Cause as some honorable thing or as intimidation during the Jim Crow era to remind black people who was in charge. They're Confederate propaganda that doesn't need to be venerated in a public square. I don't know what we can do about the side of Stone Mountain, though.
Revisionist history.

Some was done for that reason. Most was done to honor family members.

And they viewed it as treason to join the union army invading their home state. No Confederate was convicted of treason. Jefferson Davis wasn't even tried, although he was held in jail for a couple years. His bail was posted by some prominent abolitionists.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:24 AM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,054,479 times
Reputation: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Well, as I said, I am okay with moving this monument.

However, it would be way too simplistic to suggest that only the CSA were racist. Many Union soldiers opposed the emancipation of blacks and thousands of them bit the dust.

As is the case in most wars, whatever sentiments kicked it off, it wasn't long before soldiers on both sides were struggling for far more complex motives -- economics, religion, pride, sectionalism, revenge, honor, duty, family, you name it.
1. I never said only the CSA was racist, of coarse there was racist in the Union. There was racist riots in New York during the war.

The difference is the imperfect union win lead to path of equality.

The CSA was the opposite, For example lets say the union lost and the CSA won

those who fought for "pride" for the CSA........... help install a government that not only to keep slavery but CSA government could not remove slavery later. under their Constitution.

Avalon Project - Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

"Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy"

2. Which brings me to my next point...... It doesn't matter what their motive was if they thought motive was just enough to ultimately fight for side to in slave people. Their evil people, and something is wrong with that.

So let look at that again

If some thought those..............." far more complex motives -- economics, religion, pride, sectionalism, revenge, honor, duty, family, you name it.:............... was important and then a Human having free will..... speaks for itself their wrap into being a bigot they think the CSA cause worth fighting for.

3. Let get back to statues.... Again they should never been put up, They was put up against the black population wishes from the start. A poster mention it perfectly they was put up during the Jim Crow era to remind black people who was in charge. The statue themselves are whitewash Confederate propaganda to try to present the CSA cause honorable when it wasn't.

I notice I often I'm teaching CSA defenders more about the CSA then they knew. Which is not surprising because they learning lies and romanticism of the CSA and not the actual history of the CSA. Those statues where not put the learn about the CSA rather lie over history.

4. They still treason.... anyone who defend CSA statues shouldn't ever say there a patriot. They stand for men who hope for the destruction of America.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:24 AM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,054,479 times
Reputation: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Revisionist history.

Some was done for that reason. Most was done to honor family members.

And they viewed it as treason to join the union army invading their home state. No Confederate was convicted of treason. Jefferson Davis wasn't even tried, although he was held in jail for a couple years. His bail was posted by some prominent abolitionists.
It your funny calling some who actually telling history revisionist, when your literally telling revisionist history

1. first off a country can't invade itself....

2. They secede that's treason

3. The CSA secede first, and fire first shot, which cause Union troops to mobize..... not the other way around.

4. If "your family honor" is on same side as people fighting to keep slavery your family is on wrong side. And there is no honor.

4. Reconstruction is often regarded as a failure, Lincoln predecessor Andrew Johnson often ranks near the bottom of US president lists...

Andrew Johnson was near the opposite Lincoln a conservative democrat he was chosen to appeal to the South. After Lincoln assassination he became president began bumping heads with the more progressive Republicans over reconstruction of the south, civil rights and etc.



Impeachment of Andrew Johnson

How Andrew Johnson alienated Congress to the point that he was impeached - Business Insider

Reconstruction Era



Watch 2 mins in......... but especially watch (4 mins - 9 mins in).........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgT9qopK-VU

Your tooting about about "Jefferson Davis wasn't even tried" that because Andrew Johnson took office.....

Andrew Johnson himself was racist who fought congress to turn blind eye from the treason and ignore the racist law being put in place.

Thank you for making my point more.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:49 AM
 
31,995 posts, read 36,561,769 times
Reputation: 13254
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
1. I never said only the CSA was racist, of coarse there was racist in the Union. There was racist riots in New York during the war.

The difference is the imperfect union win lead to path of equality.

The CSA was the opposite, For example lets say the union lost and the CSA won

those who fought for "pride" for the CSA........... help install a government that not only to keep slavery but CSA government could not remove slavery later. under their Constitution.

Avalon Project - Constitution of the Confederate States; March 11, 1861

"Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy"

2. Which brings me to my next point...... It doesn't matter what their motive was if they thought motive was just enough to ultimately fight for side to in slave people. Their evil people, and something is wrong with that.

So let look at that again

If some thought those..............." far more complex motives -- economics, religion, pride, sectionalism, revenge, honor, duty, family, you name it.:............... was important and then a Human having free will..... speaks for itself their wrap into being a bigot they think the CSA cause worth fighting for.

3. Let get back to statues.... Again they should never been put up, They was put up against the black population wishes from the start. A poster mention it perfectly they was put up during the Jim Crow era to remind black people who was in charge. The statue themselves are whitewash Confederate propaganda to try to present the CSA cause honorable when it wasn't.

I notice I often I'm teaching CSA defenders more about the CSA then they knew. Which is not surprising because they learning lies and romanticism of the CSA and not the actual history of the CSA. Those statues where not put the learn about the CSA rather lie over history.

4. They still treason.... anyone who defend CSA statues shouldn't ever say there a patriot. They stand for men who hope for the destruction of America.
Er, I've repeatedly said I'm fine with relocating this obelisk. Practically speaking, most people are probably oblivious to it but I fully understand the philosophical objection.

And while I'm a multi generational southerner, I don't feel any need to defend the Confederacy. It was an ill considered war based on the indefensible goal of preserving and expanding slavery.

However, you seem to be taking an overly simplistic view of history. There's a lot more involved than simply saying "South bad racists, soldiers disgusting traitors."
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:54 AM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
6,495 posts, read 6,076,603 times
Reputation: 4453
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
However, you seem to be taking an overly simplistic view of history. There's a lot more involved than simply saying "South bad racists, soldiers disgusting traitors."
This is what happens when one tries to view historical events solely through a 2017 lens.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, Birmingham, Charlotte, and Raleigh
2,580 posts, read 2,467,401 times
Reputation: 1614
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
It your funny calling some who actually telling history revisionist, when your literally telling revisionist history

1. first off a country can't invade itself....

2. They secede that's treason

3. The CSA secede first, and fire first shot, which cause Union troops to mobize..... not the other way around.

4. If "your family honor" is on same side as people fighting to keep slavery your family is on wrong side. And there is no honor.

4. Reconstruction is often regarded as a failure, Lincoln predecessor Andrew Johnson often ranks near the bottom of US president lists...

Andrew Johnson was near the opposite Lincoln a conservative democrat he was chosen to appeal to the South. After Lincoln assassination he became president began bumping heads with the more progressive Republicans over reconstruction of the south, civil rights and etc.



Impeachment of Andrew Johnson

How Andrew Johnson alienated Congress to the point that he was impeached - Business Insider

Reconstruction Era



Watch 2 mins in......... but especially watch (4 mins - 9 mins in).........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgT9qopK-VU

Your tooting about about "Jefferson Davis wasn't even tried" that because Andrew Johnson took office.....

Andrew Johnson himself was racist who fought congress to turn blind eye from the treason and ignore the racist law being put in place.

Thank you for making my point more.


The obtuseness of some of the posters is embarrassing, but not surprising because many of them are so "(white) privilege" minded. The US as a whole is a racist nation, but red herrings are placed everywhere to ignore the fact that the Confederacy was a regime that was inherent bigotry as its very worse...the maintenance of chattel slavery. However, I know whom in this forum that are truly trifling individuals with their constant sardonic and obtuse language of anything that pertains to stating the facts of bigotry and racism of this damn state, region, etc...
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:46 AM
bu2
 
23,876 posts, read 14,674,294 times
Reputation: 12663
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Er, I've repeatedly said I'm fine with relocating this obelisk. Practically speaking, most people are probably oblivious to it but I fully understand the philosophical objection.

And while I'm a multi generational southerner, I don't feel any need to defend the Confederacy. It was an ill considered war based on the indefensible goal of preserving and expanding slavery.

However, you seem to be taking an overly simplistic view of history. There's a lot more involved than simply saying "South bad racists, soldiers disgusting traitors."
My point.

And the only relatives of mine that fought in the war I am aware of fought for the North. One died in the 7 days battles.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:12 AM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,054,479 times
Reputation: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
This is what happens when one tries to view historical events solely through a 2017 lens.
Yes because

1. in 1865 lens racism was okay, so coarse I seeing though a 2017 lens

2. I'm black

Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
My point.

And the only relatives of mine that fought in the war I am aware of fought for the North. One died in the 7 days battles.
My ancestors exist in America during that time too...................

Guess what situation they had?

Last edited by chiatldal; 10-27-2017 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:36 AM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,054,479 times
Reputation: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Er, I've repeatedly said I'm fine with relocating this obelisk. Practically speaking, most people are probably oblivious to it but I fully understand the philosophical objection.

And while I'm a multi generational southerner, I don't feel any need to defend the Confederacy. It was an ill considered war based on the indefensible goal of preserving and expanding slavery.

However, you seem to be taking an overly simplistic view of history. There's a lot more involved than simply saying "South bad racists, soldiers disgusting traitors."
It's interesting because you making a simplistic respond to my answer already addressing what your saying.

I don't think you understand as black person you have asbulately zero empathy towards anything or any one of CSA. point blank
What do I suppose to say........... aaaaaawwwwww he such a nice guy...... I wish he would had won?

or

Aaaaaawwwwww he a relative.... there for I must excuse him and ignore he ultimately fought for a side that wanted to keep slavery.


I answer the last part again........... well here my "complex view".................. It doesn't matter what that their motive was............ it's flaw in itself to even think that they even had a motive..... that was worth helping a side preserving and expanding slavery.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:15 PM
 
4,819 posts, read 6,054,479 times
Reputation: 4600
Quote:
Originally Posted by jero23 View Post


The obtuseness of some of the posters is embarrassing, but not surprising because many of them are so "(white) privilege" minded. The US as a whole is a racist nation, but red herrings are placed everywhere to ignore the fact that the Confederacy was a regime that was inherent bigotry as its very worse...the maintenance of chattel slavery. However, I know whom in this forum that are truly trifling individuals with their constant sardonic and obtuse language of anything that pertains to stating the facts of bigotry and racism of this damn state, region, etc...
Maybe it white privilege in their comments, cause if your black this becomes a debate over your free will.

Bob " more complex motives -- economics, religion, pride, sectionalism, revenge, honor, duty, family, you name it." for fighting for CSA....................... if he would had succeed would lead to continuation of slavery over 3 million people.

Even if some one reasons for joining the CSA wasn't specifically to keep slavery.... To think their reason was greater than the free will of Human so join a side fighting to keep slavery is backward and racist.... This means they are so wrap up in being a bigot with having so little value in black people, that their priorities are jack up...... that they think they actually have reasons to join the CSA.


The same goes with idea of treason............... "more complex motives -- economics, religion, pride, sectionalism, revenge, honor, duty, family, you name it." then they thought that was worth treason..... it's still treason.


Imagine a group of bank robbers............. that harmed people, then someone turn around and said but think of more complex issues in those bank robbers life........ I mean they robbed and harm people for their family, pride, economics, duty, revenge and etc............. as if it change the fact they are awful people.

Last edited by chiatldal; 10-27-2017 at 12:26 PM..
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