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Old 11-01-2017, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,579 posts, read 10,734,216 times
Reputation: 6552

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Ok... I've been ignoring this largely because I don't have the time to really address everything appropriately and deal with all the spinning records some people have.

This thread started from anxiety over the situation and now I see a widespread misunderstanding of the reality Gwinnett faces and many people are just taking cheap anti-"suburban" shots at this point.


A few realities:

- Gwinnett has a real active transit system.

As much as people try to belittle again and again there is one inconvenient fact that can relate to both Cobb and Gwinnett Counties. Marta already has service areas going a comparable length out of town on I-85 South, I-20 East, and GA400 North. Recently this was extended with Clayton/I-75 with pressure over funding parity. What is noteworthy is that both Gwinnett and Cobb provide a higher or equal level of bus service to all of Marta's comparable areas leading that far out of town. Additionally, they do it for far-far less than the money they'd lose in the sales tax.

- Gwinnett has their own express system

Earlier conversations in this thread got dicey. Gwinnett does not have a busway. There are plans to make the HOT lanes 2 lanes in each direction. Gwinnett has an existing self-funded express bus system to midtown and downtown that is not GRTA. They also operate routes for GRTA by contract, so it is understandable some get confused. Again... all this is done for far cheaper

-Gwinnett could double or triple the size of their transit operations and it would still be far cheaper for them than joining the MARTA sales tax.


-The state's legislature is starting to look at changing transit governance. We should encourage this and twist people's arms. Currently there are two main options: 1) Go at it alone or 2) Join a one-size-fits-all taxing system.

This is very problematic. The problem is Gwinnett collects more from retail sales than Fulton County does. If you add Cobb and Dekalb to the mix, respectively, Cobb and Gwinnett collectively earn more from a 1% sales tax. There are multiple problems with this. Gwinnett will likely never end up with as much service ('nor does it really) what is found in central Fulton County. Even if we get a 5 or 6 station extension of one HRT line, it will not be near the same.

For this one reason... for probably the first time... Nash is actually starting to have a real conversation and y'all are choosing not to listen, regardless of how y'all feel. She is starting a conversation with a real truth, no matter how inconvenient. If Gwinnett joins MARTA under this type of taxing arrangement, the long-term costs will be a wealth transfer out of the county. Short-run/medium-run capital costs are so high it won't matter, but when all is built and paid off at the end of the day it will be a wealth transfer out of county. It is no wonder so many intown people want to ratchet up the rhetoric and try to twist Gwinnett's arms while they can....

We really need to twist the state to get together with the counties (all) and the CoA and look at the best ways to change state law and to get the state to tangibly help out too.


The larger problem is simply this. While Gwinnett collects more from sales tax, we collect a small bit less from property tax (both per capita and per capita student (related to the schools). Atlanta has very well-funded schools. They mostly have a problem with socio-economic impacts they were dealt. Gwinnett is well-funded too, but they depend very heavy on SPLOST sales taxes to build out their system. Gwinnett has 173k students that is still rapidly growing (cobb has 111k, Dekalb has 100k, Fulton 95k, CoA 51k for comparisons)

The state limits how much sales tax local jurisdictions can have and this includes MARTA. The major exception was the semi-temporary tax to fix Atlanta's water system, which was very needed under shear desperation.

But there lies the problem in the rhetoric I see building up in this forum. Gwinnett has real tangible opportunity costs. We are the largest school system in the state by a wide margin. We have the largest county-built road system in the state. We did not have the federal government actively building federal routes and interstates, like the CoA and Dekalb had back in the 30s-70s. That funding and mentality dried up, but that put pressure on the local counties to build their own.

Gwinnett, locally, actually depends less on freeways than our MARTA-taxed counterparts next door in Dekalb. The federal government helped fund freeways throughout every corner of their county. They were able to put less money into their county-built arterial system and consider more options, like the MARTA tax. Gwinnett, inversely, had to put more money into our roads. We are approaching build-out, but we are not there yet.

We have real tangible costs to implement without the original growth benefits intown areas were gifted by the federal government. You can make whatever anti-suburban growth argument you want in reply, but that doesn't the growth won't come. The state's courts give land-owners sizeable rights with their own land. Gwinnett could ignore the growth, but it will only make things harder for us after the fact.


So, yes, Nash is actually starting to spot out the concerns of Gwinnett County that she represents... probably for the first time in a very neutral position on how people feel about transit or not. Nash deserves better responses than this.

If Gwinnett joins MARTA under this taxing system, Gwinnett will lose access to critical tax money that supports their growth in terms of parks, schools, and roads. Gwinnett has some really large expenses to take on here and will as it will grow well beyond 1 million people.

Gwinnett should not give into to not running their own system merely due to people's desires over branding either.


Now... despite this... I am not one who has been anti-MARTA and I grew up longing for Gwinnett to be a part of MARTA. But many people here are just being simple and they are forgetting the very real problems and arguments being raised in such a simple statement from Nash that are very real.

My two-cents is we need a semi-state supported system that runs 12-20 counties and has multiple tiers of taxing/benefits. That will open up the door for funding a real commuter system with widespread benefits, even if the costs of building are primarily in key inner-local areas. But you will not find that asking all of these rapidly growing suburban and exurban counties to pay a whole penny either. They are depending on that sales tax revenue for capital growth, while property tax pays for operations and maintenance.
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,579 posts, read 10,734,216 times
Reputation: 6552
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
That is already possible. I can find the specifics of it but the state made it possible a few years ago for Marta to extend service outside of its jurisdiction without that entire county having to join Marta.
MArta has long been able to go out of their district.

They technically run into Cobb and use to serve a small slither of Gwinnett when the fiber optic plant was still running full steam.

The idea is MARTA can run anywhere it affected their farebox recovery bottom-line or served their constinuents. In the early days in Gwinnett, they has a single line venture just inside the county to get to one single customer drop off point.

They do the same in Cobb.

Now what is different is that systems and counties can have contracts with outside areas.

For example GRTA pays Gwinnett Transit to run several of their lines for them.

Inversely, Gwinnett and Cobb are allowed to drive into Dekalb and Fulton... and do so.
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:12 PM
 
1,497 posts, read 1,510,064 times
Reputation: 695
commuter rail (which I believe was the original idea of GRTA) would make more sense.. limited rush hour service with limited number stops offering express service into Atlanta. The low density sprawl nature of Gwinnett County is just not conducive for a metro system.. Once you get off at the station it is very hard to walk anywhere in Gwinnett. Successful metro systems depend on higher density and pedestrian oriented street patterns and development. That does not exist in Gwinnett. I can see a place for commuter lots that offer rush hour express bus or commuter train service though. GRTA was supposed to do this.. it was supposed to be a commuter transit agency.. it has not really lived up to that goal.
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,796,311 times
Reputation: 5702
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Those CID's would likely need to join the MARTA service area on a permanent basis for that, with a permanent MARTA tax set up for it. (Of some kind. Maybe it could be property tax, a sales tax, combo of each, or whatever.)

Gwinnett could maybe have a similar deal, with the Gwinnett Village and Gwinnett Place CID's allowing MARTA service along the I-85 corridor, but other parts of the county would not get service.

Peachtree Corners is really a critical area to join MARTA, as MARTA can't properly serve Johns Creek without it.
MARTA could enter into a multi-jurisdictional agreement with Gwinnett Co and/or Peachtree Corners to operate a bus along 141, just like they currently do on 201 and 12.
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,222,235 times
Reputation: 7779
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
MARTA could enter into a multi-jurisdictional agreement with Gwinnett Co and/or Peachtree Corners to operate a bus along 141, just like they currently do on 201 and 12.
Yeah, and some bus service on Holcomb Bridge/ Jimmy Carter. Just some general flexibility is needed, less absolute rigidity, with respect to MARTA and county lines and funding.

Or what if each of these 8 commission districts, 4 each in Cobb and Gwinnett, were each allowed to vote on their district joining MARTA:

https://cobbcounty.org/images/docume...apJan_2015.pdf

https://www.gwinnettcounty.com/porta...rs/DistrictMap

Cobb District 4 would be a shoe-in, and District 2 a probably close yes. 1 and 3 probably majority no, although District 1 would be close, with the changing demographics of Marietta and Kennesaw.

And Gwinnett District 2 should be a yes, with some of the others maybe being a close vote.

To me, this split up would solve a lot of problems. No perfect solution, but a reasonable compromise for Cobb and Gwinnett.

And then GRTA could serve the districts of Cobb and Gwinnett that decline MARTA. With express bus routes.

CCT and GCT could finally go away.
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Old 11-01-2017, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
7,351 posts, read 6,504,570 times
Reputation: 5164
Or they could just not stop in Gwinnett.
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:17 PM
 
32,009 posts, read 36,668,783 times
Reputation: 13274
They've got a lot of independent-minded cusses up in Gwinnett who don't cotton to a bunch city slickers telling them what to do.
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,222,235 times
Reputation: 7779
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
They've got a lot of independent-minded cusses up in Gwinnett who don't cotton to a bunch city slickers telling them what to do.
That's why we need to gerrymander a line through Cobb and Gwinnett counties, separating the inner, Fulton and Dekalb-adjacent parts of the counties and most of the historic cities and the county seat area, from the outer/rural/conservative sections.

Let Section A vote to join MARTA, and let Section B continue to not fund or receive MARTA service.

Or, like I was saying, use the different districts in each county, let them each decide for themselves.

I'm just going along with the whole, "county is not a monolith" argument. Fine, maybe it isn't. So let them divide it up, which areas get MARTA or not.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:00 PM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
6,502 posts, read 6,098,882 times
Reputation: 4463
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Yeah, and some bus service on Holcomb Bridge/ Jimmy Carter. Just some general flexibility is needed, less absolute rigidity, with respect to MARTA and county lines and funding.

Or what if each of these 8 commission districts, 4 each in Cobb and Gwinnett, were each allowed to vote on their district joining MARTA:

https://cobbcounty.org/images/docume...apJan_2015.pdf

https://www.gwinnettcounty.com/porta...rs/DistrictMap

Cobb District 4 would be a shoe-in, and District 2 a probably close yes. 1 and 3 probably majority no, although District 1 would be close, with the changing demographics of Marietta and Kennesaw.

And Gwinnett District 2 should be a yes, with some of the others maybe being a close vote.

To me, this split up would solve a lot of problems. No perfect solution, but a reasonable compromise for Cobb and Gwinnett.

And then GRTA could serve the districts of Cobb and Gwinnett that decline MARTA. With express bus routes.

CCT and GCT could finally go away.
So what happens when the county commission districts are redrawn every 10 years as part of Census reapportionment?
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,222,235 times
Reputation: 7779
Well then just use CID's, then. You get my point, though.

I'd like to see a map of all the Cobb and Gwinnett CID's, and the area in each county that potentially could become a CID or join an existing CID.

Also would be nice to see a recent, updated city limits map of Gwinnett. (Featuring Peachtree Corners city limits).

There should be a way using CID's and cities, to have key parts of Cobb and Gwinnett to join MARTA, while excluding the rest.
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