The Vibrancy Problem (Atlanta, Lawrenceville, Suwanee: crime rates, price, mall)

[primaltech]

I still haven't seen a good argument as to why more people walking around = objectively "better" than less people walking around. Or why Atlanta should be what it isn't, or should be more like other cities, when it's doing just fine for what it is. I haven't seen anyone explain why Atlanta is not "vibrant" (full of energy), just because more people are indoors or in cars, and things are more spread out and in pockets. You can't have vibrancy unless it's visible in one convenient picture frame, for you to point at?

OP is an anti-Atlanta constant troll, who should be banned from the forum. That's about the only thing we've actually established here, 17 pages in. Oh, and that Atlanta has a different kind of feel than Manhattan or in the Loop of Chicago. Wow, breaking news.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by TheTravelinMan

This is actually not correct - have you driven on I-85 in the Buford Dr. - Hamilton Mill area lately?

Yup. That is an HOT lane that they are installing, but the GP lanes will still be 2 lanes each way. No increase of capacity, only a bypass for the GP lanes for those willing to pay. HOT lanes do not increase capacity as the general flow of traffic is hardly impacted by them, only those willing to pay to use them are aided by their presence.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I still haven't seen a good argument as to why more people walking around = objectively "better" than less people walking around. Or why Atlanta should be what it isn't, or should be more like other cities, when it's doing just fine for what it is. I haven't seen anyone explain why Atlanta is not "vibrant" (full of energy), just because more people are indoors or in cars, and things are more spread out and in pockets. You can't have vibrancy unless it's visible in one convenient picture frame, for you to point at?

OP is an anti-Atlanta constant troll, who should be banned from the forum. That's about the only thing we've actually established here, 17 pages in. Oh, and that Atlanta has a different kind of feel than Manhattan or in the Loop of Chicago. Wow, breaking news.

Generally speaking the cities of Chicago, New York, San Fran, ect all of them of which have more pedestrian traffic are typically alot more dense in development and have more robust transit networks of which enables pedestrian traffic, although I do tend to wonder if all of these features were present here in Atlanta if people would choose to walk or drive. Another thing is, all three cities I mentioned before are especially unfriendly to cars in general in their core so theres that factor as well.

[Iconographer]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I still haven't seen a good argument as to why more people walking around = objectively "better" than less people walking around. Or why Atlanta should be what it isn't, or should be more like other cities, when it's doing just fine for what it is. I haven't seen anyone explain why Atlanta is not "vibrant" (full of energy), just because more people are indoors or in cars, and things are more spread out and in pockets. You can't have vibrancy unless it's visible in one convenient picture frame, for you to point at?

OP is an anti-Atlanta constant troll, who should be banned from the forum. That's about the only thing we've actually established here, 17 pages in. Oh, and that Atlanta has a different kind of feel than Manhattan or in the Loop of Chicago. Wow, breaking news.

Testify, Brother Primaltech.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by architect77

Freeing the Freeways mega widening in the 80s transformed dinky, typical-sized I-85, I-75 and I-285 into today's behemoths.

Top end I-285 added a lane making it 5 continuous lanes in the 90s.

I-75 southside just finished major project adding capacity.

GA316 project in the 2000s added lanes.

I-85 North adding 1 or 2 lanes at periphery of metro.

GA400 added a lane or two in northern suburbs.

I-75 and I575 in Cobb expanding capacity.

I-20 West most likely added some capacity with recent projects.

GA400 Herb Emory flyover and Ga400 Buckhead extension added lanes since the 90s.

Downtown connector has added lanes near GT.

Ronald Reagan Pkwy in Gwinnett added capacity.

That's the "repeated widening" for our simple hub/spoke freeway layout dating back to the 1960s.

I was going to respond to all this, but I see that someone else has already done so. We may have "repeatedly" added lanes way back when, but in the last 20 years, there has been almost no change to our freeway capacity, even as population exploded. Between 1999 and now (18 years), the population of the metro has grown by 40%, with a large portion of that traveling ITP. In that same amount of time, ITP and near OTP has not seen a single lane added to any interstate, and MARTA has added only two stations, on the same line near each other.

Now, way out OTP, there might have been some capacity added. But for ITP and anywhere near OTP, our freeways have barely been touched in 30 years. Maybe a single lane added over 20 years ago.

Downtown connector went from 6 to 7 lanes each way sometime between 1993 and 1997. It is still that same size, even with a much higher population using it.

The 400/285 interchange is essentially still the same as when it was built 50 years ago, even as that part of the metro has seen the biggest growth of anywhere.

This is a chart I posted previously on another thread.

Pretty true. I did a little map searching, and went through historical imagery. Here is what I found. I looked at the connector, 285 (two locations), 400, and each spoke of interstate. Each spoke was checked about halfway between the split and 285. I have not yet looked up OTP freeways. I also checked how many MARTA stations were open each year. Here is what I found:


Year_____Population____Pop_%____75N___85N___Conn__ 75S___85S___20W___20E___400___285____MARTA
1988_____2,750,000_____-32%_____4_____5_____6______5_____3?____4_____3____ _-_____4__3___29
1993_____3,300,000_____-19%_____4_____5_____6______5_____3_____4_____3____ _3?____5__3___33
1999_*___4,050,000_____-________5_____6_____7______6_____3_____4_____4____ _4_____6__4___36
2017_____5,700,000_____+40%_____5_____6_____7_____ 6_____3_____4_____5_____4_____6__4___38

I don't know how often or recent "repeatedly" is to you, but it certainly hasn't been "repeatedly" upgraded the last two decades.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I still haven't seen a good argument as to why more people walking around = objectively "better" than less people walking around.

More specifically, areas that give people more reasons to walk are typically better than those that don't. The former has streets lined with shops, restaurants, attractions, etc. which generate tax revenue, foster an increased sense of socialization, provides more eyes on the street which act as deterrents to crime, etc.

Or why Atlanta should be what it isn't, or should be more like other cities, when it's doing just fine for what it is.

What's wrong with Atlanta improving itself?

I haven't seen anyone explain why Atlanta is not "vibrant" (full of energy), just because more people are indoors or in cars, and things are more spread out and in pockets. You can't have vibrancy unless it's visible in one convenient picture frame, for you to point at?

I think the focus here was on downtown proper which clearly has more than its fair share of challenged areas.

OP is an anti-Atlanta constant troll, who should be banned from the forum. That's about the only thing we've actually established here, 17 pages in. Oh, and that Atlanta has a different kind of feel than Manhattan or in the Loop of Chicago. Wow, breaking news.

Agreed about the OP, but that doesn't mean that this isn't a topic worth exploring honestly.

[TheTravelinMan]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Yup. That is an HOT lane that they are installing, but the GP lanes will still be 2 lanes each way. No increase of capacity, only a bypass for the GP lanes for those willing to pay. HOT lanes do not increase capacity as the general flow of traffic is hardly impacted by them, only those willing to pay to use them are aided by their presence.

Correct they are extending the HOT lanes. However they are also adding an additional GP lane as part of long range plan to widen 85 all the way to the SC state line.

I-85 widening in north Georgia to be first in new GDOT... | AccessWDUN.com

Late last month, the department let the contract for the work which will run from I-985 to Georgia 53.

[architect77]

I am the biggest proclaimer that GDOT did nothing for 20 years as it watch metro population more than double.

I only cited those road projects as a response to "repeated widening?" denier.

Our highways weren't initially built overly-wide with extreme lane counts, and our unique freeways today are the result of GDOT's heritage of doing as little as possible on the path of least resistance.

No strategic new highways to better connect, relieve, serve the region, just...

wait until mobility grinds to a halt and no longer can be ignored...

and add another lane!

All of the road projects, in very general terms, could fall under "repeated widening" as they are relieving pressure on interchanges or mainlines.

I don't care what anyone says, when I moved back in 2010 I arrived at the GA316 interchange and almost fainted with what looked like 25 lanes, full of cars in front of me. That project included what, about 15-20 new overpasses and umpteen new transition lanes After 11 years in NYC/ Northeast, it's a shocking reintroduction to the other, car-centric America that invests so much in & still deems progress as and only as "adding another lane", in complete contrast to general sentiment in walkable, pedestrian-oriented, NE cities.

I realize it seems I'm contradicting myself from previous posts, because I do believe Atlanta needs capacity expansion and adding lanes is the most realistic for many specific locations.

My list cited projects since the 80s. GA400 slicing through Buckhead in the 90s was a huge addition to the system.

A new flyover named after Capt. Herb Emory included new ramps/ connections like where it joined with the "To Peachtree St" flyover.

The area around mall of Georgia IS getting a new 3rd general travel lane in both directions that's separate from new HOT lane.

I-75 in Cobb is getting almost 50% worth of new roadway that has to translate into some % of added capacity relief for general lanes.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by TheTravelinMan

Correct they are extending the HOT lanes. However they are also adding an additional GP lane as part of long range plan to widen 85 all the way to the SC state line.

I-85 widening in north Georgia to be first in new GDOT... | AccessWDUN.com

From my understanding and the way I was informed it was going to be two lanes each way and 1 HOT lane until it leaves the metro @ Hamilton Mill and from Hamilton Mill Northward to Commerce it will be 3 GP lanes each way until eventually they complete it all the way to SC. If they make it 3 lanes from I-985 to Hamilton Mill then that is good they really need to but...its still way overdue.

Edit: I did forget the lanes they're adding on GA-400 north of McFarland, those were really needed.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by architect77

I don't care what anyone says, when I moved back in 2010 I arrived at the GA316 interchange and almost fainted with what looked like 25 lanes, full of cars in front of me. That project included what, about 15-20 new overpasses and umpteen new transition lanes

Are you talking about 85 at 316? I guess it matters what you consider an overpass, but I count a grand total of 16 overpasses if you include every bridge over the creek, and count each overpass separately as it crosses over each part of 85. If you count each real highway overpass bridge, there are four.

That being said, that whole thing is way over-engineered, although it does keep Pleasant Hill and 85 merging traffic separated from 316 merging traffic all at the same time.