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Old 04-02-2018, 10:32 PM
 
6,388 posts, read 5,845,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
You're describing a recent trend that may be reversing.
Hopefully so... Because it is not healthy when large swaths of the world's land area (like smaller second-tier city/metros and rural areas) are locked almost completely out of the economic growth and prosperity trends that larger urban areas and metros seem to be benefitting from disproportionally at the moment.

One thing to note about the article that you linked to that the outmigration trends it noted seemed to reflect a movement away from areas like New York and California because of the (sometimes ridiculously) high and rising costs of living and doing business in those areas.

The seemingly increasingly large-scale move away from higher-cost large major metro areas in states like New York and California likely will only work to benefit lower-cost large major metros in states like Texas, Georgia, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Indiana, Ohio, etc, moving forward.

...Something which means that a very large major metro like Atlanta likely will continue to be an attractive target for large amounts of business/economic investment because of the relatively lower cost of both living and doing business here compared to the Northeast and the West Coast.
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Old 04-03-2018, 08:54 AM
 
31,152 posts, read 28,911,965 times
Reputation: 19667
Quote:
You've made a series of inferences that I don't follow. First, I never said Columbia was "Augusta or Macon with a statehouse and a state university." I said metro Athens was more progressive than metro Columbia. (And when I cited "Athens" each time, I meant the metro, not Athens-Clarke alone.)
Well in that case, you failed to mention the overwhelming conservative nature of Madison, Oconee, and Oglethorpe counties in metro Athens. As is typical for the South, the core of the metro is blue surrounded by a sea of red. Or are you honestly trying to argue that metro Athens on the whole is progressive???

And you went way beyond saying that metro Athens is more progressive than metro Columbia; you tried to paint Columbia as some bastion of extreme conservatism by saying that Columbia "has lots of extreme right-wing elements" and when I asked for examples, on more than one occasion, you ignored my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight View Post
You said: "Clarke County had a higher percentage of its voters pull the lever for Trump in the primary (26.7%) than Richland County (23.4%)." Is that supposed to mean that Trump is so awful that Clarke County Republicans choosing Trump in the spring of 2016 mean more hateful, racist, or automatically less progressive people on social issues, and there's a lower percentage of those yahoos in Richland County? You need to explain this, and why Trump (or his percentage) is at all relevant to a discussion comparing two counties in progressivism or sales of organic peanut butter.
OMG, my head hurts...you still didn't read what I wrote in its entirety. Clarke County Republicans DID NOT CHOOSE TRUMP. BOTH COUNTIES WENT FOR RUBIO AND HAD SIMILAR NUMBERS VOTING FOR TRUMP, which says, to me, that both counties have more traditional Republicans and most did not follow Trump into the xenophobic, racist swamp. Is it clear to you now? Or will you still argue that Republicans in Richland County and throughout metro Columbia worship the likes of George Wallace?

Quote:
His post (one post) was condemned by several on this thread for its parochialism and ignorance. Mr. Scientist mentioned no legislation or activism, kiddo. He is a recent Atlanta transplant who sees metro Atlanta as the only worthy place in Georgia for a "Columbia scientist." I disagree wholeheartedly, and I think Athens is one such place.
Yes, all the native Georgians pounced on him because he has a view that many, many transplants to inner metro Atlanta have. No he didn't mention legislation but from my perspective, it was implied. Anyway, moving on.

Quote:
Finally, the Athens anti-discrimination article deals with issues of one (unelected) activist group versus an (elected) county commission. It involves power politics amid a host of thorny issues: alcohol, dress codes, race, youthful revelers, and private businesses. Such a news flash could come from any college town.
But it didn't come from "any college town;" it came from Athens. Looks like the ordinance is needed there.
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:59 AM
 
4,445 posts, read 4,557,518 times
Reputation: 3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Yes rural areas tend to be red (although that doesn't mean that all Republican rural areas are equally conservative). And yes, the outer suburbs in metro Atlanta play a very big role in the state going red. Nobody is saying otherwise.



I'm well aware of all of this. When I talk about metro Atlanta in a liberal context, I'm not talking about the entire metro but Fulton, Dekalb, Clayton, parts of Gwinnett, etc. I explicitly said "conservative interests in rural Georgia and the Atlanta suburbs and exurbs still carry the day" but I guess you overlooked that so you could bash me for "not getting it" and "marginalizing and dismissing progressive 2nd tier cities throughout the state." And just like Atlanta, the blue counties in the 2nd tier metros tend to be the core county and maybe another suburban county or two while the rest are red.

But it should also be noted that when it comes to many of the Republican voters in suburban and exurban Atlanta, many of them actually lean more Libertarian and as such, they are a bit more socially liberal and they tend to have a more pro-business attitude concerning the metro as a whole. Many of their interests are quite different than the interests of many rural/small town Republican voters and in many cases, it is the legislators from rural areas and smaller towns and cities (including Gainesville, e.g. Cagle) that cause Georgia to make headlines and not in a good way.
I know what you mean, remember my first respond to Columbia Scientist. And you respond you understand how he or she feel. but you still placing too much emphasis on rural voters. Okay let re phrase rural areas voter are no where as significant all those outer suburban red voters. rural voters are not dicating the state, those republican in suburban Atlanta are.

And Gainesville is not a big city, Hall county pretty much growing cause it's an exurb, The ARC even includes it in a lot of their studies.

Anyways... the only thing Columbia Scientist really did was ignore the blue 2nd tier cities and ignore the suburban red counties. A lot of posters place too much emphasis criticizing south Georgia and rual voters When they not the main reason for Georgia politics.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:23 AM
 
31,152 posts, read 28,911,965 times
Reputation: 19667
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
I know what you mean, remember my first respond to Columbia Scientist. And you respond you understand how he or she feel. but you still placing too much emphasis on rural voters. Okay let re phrase rural areas voter are no where as significant all those outer suburban red voters. rural voters are not dicating the state, those republican in suburban Atlanta are.

And Gainesville is not a big city, Hall county pretty much growing cause it's an exurb, The ARC even includes it in a lot of their studies.

Anyways... the only thing Columbia Scientist really did was ignore the blue 2nd tier cities and ignore the suburban red counties. A lot of posters place too much emphasis criticizing south Georgia and rual voters When they not the main reason for Georgia politics.
I agree. Although the interests of Republican voters from the Atlanta suburbs/exurbs aren't always aligned with those of Republican voters from rural Georgia, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of daylight between Republican legislators from both regions.

And I didn't say Gainesville was a big city; Atlanta is the only city in the state to fit the bill. It's a big town/small city (however you want to describe it) with an outsized political influence in the state though, and typically on the conservative end of things.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:30 AM
 
4,445 posts, read 4,557,518 times
Reputation: 3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I say basing any of this on politics is ludicrous. In most places the swing is within the 60-40 splilt so you aren't getting any homogenous bloc of any one political persuasion anywhere. If there is a bloc, it is in the African American community. And African American reasons for aligning with the democratic party are often as far afield from "progressives" as gun toting bubba in the trailer park is conservative the way a Buckhead Republican is.

I hate politics and the way it divides. Really, really hate it. I grew up in a time where we were Georgians and you didn't really know anyone's political affiliations for the most part and you surely didn't disdain them or treat them differently if they voted opposite of you.
That's not true, there are more moderated African Americans then most democrats cause of religion but in terms of civil right rights, Healthcare and irony gun control African Americans voted toward the left.

but in terms of most areas being spit that is true. We fall into the blue state red state thinking so much that some people think of some states as conservative utopias and other liberal utopias, it ignores that all states are pretty split.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...States.svg.png

Cities tend to vote blue, rural and outer suburbs red. Which makes my point to Columbia Scientist it's not like rural Washington is much different from rural Georgia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...County.svg.png
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Outer Boroughs, NYC
1,708 posts, read 1,380,135 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
You failed to mention the overwhelming conservative nature of Madison, Oconee, and Oglethorpe counties in metro Athens. As is typical for the South, the core of the metro is blue surrounded by a sea of red. Or are you honestly trying to argue that metro Athens on the whole is progressive???... Columbia has lots
I know those counties, and many UGA students (and professors and UGA office workers) actually live out there. They're not some scene out of Deliverance, not now. Outer Athens is well integrated with Athens-Clarke. That wasn't the case before.

As for SC, I didn't "paint" anything. The SC metros are huge. They have many people of a post-Strom Thurmond political bent. SC politics can be pretty extreme and outspoken by Georgia standards: see Trey Gowdy and Joe Wilson. That history goes all the way back to Ben "Pitchfork" Tillman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
OMG, my head hurts...you still didn't read what I wrote in its entirety. Clarke County Republicans DID NOT CHOOSE TRUMP. BOTH COUNTIES WENT FOR RUBIO AND HAD SIMILAR NUMBERS VOTING FOR TRUMP, which says, to me, etc. etc.
My head hurt when I read your irrelevant segue into the Republican presidential primaries. Bernie Sanders is relevant, true; the votes for bland "moderate" Republicans? No. Trump won Republican primaries in some very progressive places in the Midwest and here in the Northeast. They didn't vote against gays or women or Hispanics or blacks. They voted against cerebral Obama-Hillary elitism, globalization, and illegal immigration (with a pathway to citizenship). I voted for HRC, but I totally understand the Trump voters of 2016.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
throughout metro Columbia worship the likes of George Wallace?
No, papi, I never said that. I have relatives throughout the Columbia MSA. They didn't vote for Wallace even in 1968.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Yes, all the native Georgians pounced on him because he has a view that many, many transplants to inner metro Atlanta have. No he didn't mention legislation but from my perspective, it was implied.
Hosanna! Agree on that first sentence. You are still being far too kind to Mr. Scientist. "It was implied"! Nope, no legislation was implied. Nothing was "implied" except narrow-mindedness and the failure to acknowledge a very progressive southern metro just 75 miles down the road.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:21 AM
 
31,152 posts, read 28,911,965 times
Reputation: 19667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
My original statement about blacks and the Democratic party still stand. They by and large voted en masse with Hilary and eschewed Bernie. African Americans are still very conservative on many social issues. The democratic party is a pretty big tent.
Yes, Blacks voted en masse with Hillary and eschewed Bernie because Hillary is much more known throughout Black America and Bernie's outreach to Black voters, particularly in the South, was horrible plus Black voters are on the whole more pragmatic. Blacks do skew a bit more conservative on social issues but in many cases that's quite overblown. For one, we may have our positions on certain social issues but even then, they are somewhat tempered. Have you ever read this article from 2004? https://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/03/u...n-georgia.html

Also, when people talk about Blacks and social conservatism, they are mainly referring to LGBT issues and even that's changing: Support for Same-Sex Marriage Grows, Even Among Groups That Had Been Skeptical | Pew Research Center
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:41 AM
 
31,152 posts, read 28,911,965 times
Reputation: 19667
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight View Post
I know those counties, and many UGA students (and professors and UGA office workers) actually live out there. They're not some scene out of Deliverance, not now. Outer Athens is well integrated with Athens-Clarke. That wasn't the case before.
I'm pretty sure they aren't anything close to progressive though. It's worth noting that all of those counties voted for Trump by a larger margin than any county in Columbia's MSA. Oconee County had the lowest share of voters breaking for Trump at 67.7%. Lexington County's voters went for Trump by the highest margin in metro Columbia at 65.6%. In metro Columbia, two other counties went for Trump rather decisively (60-65%), whereas one barely went for Trump at 50.1% and another county voted decisively for Hillary at 61%. Now of course voting Democratic isn't exactly the same as being progressive, but there's no way I can see counties that voted for Trump at margins of nearly 68% and above as being progressive at all.

Quote:
As for SC, I didn't "paint" anything. The SC metros are huge. They have many people of a post-Strom Thurmond political bent. SC politics can be pretty extreme and outspoken by Georgia standards: see Trey Gowdy and Joe Wilson. That history goes all the way back to Ben "Pitchfork" Tillman.
We're not talking about SC politics as a whole, but metro Columbia in particular. Trey Gowdy is from the Upstate which is known for its conservatism. Joe Wilson? Yeah, that "you lie" thing was an embarrassment for sure but I certainly wouldn't peg him as an extreme right-winger. Plus he's from Lexington County, which is Columbia's version of Cobb County or Columbia County in metro Augusta.

Quote:
My head hurt when I read your irrelevant segue into the Republican presidential primaries. Bernie Sanders is relevant, true; the votes for bland "moderate" Republicans? No. Trump won Republican primaries in some very progressive places in the Midwest and here in the Northeast. They didn't vote against gays or women or Hispanics or blacks. They voted against cerebral Obama-Hillary elitism, globalization, and illegal immigration (with a pathway to citizenship). I voted for HRC, but I totally understand the Trump voters of 2016.
Well therein lies the rub. Too many Trump voters hide their xenophobia behind "economic anxiety" and all that jazz, but that's another discussion for another day.

Quote:
No, papi, I never said that. I have relatives throughout the Columbia MSA. They didn't vote for Wallace even in 1968.
So where are all the "lots of extreme right-wing elements" in metro Columbia that you speak of?

Quote:
Hosanna! Agree on that first sentence. You are still being far too kind to Mr. Scientist. "It was implied"! Nope, no legislation was implied. Nothing was "implied" except narrow-mindedness and the failure to acknowledge a very progressive southern metro just 75 miles down the road.
Athens may be very progressive but it's also very small. Clearly it's not big enough to have an impact on state politics.
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:28 PM
 
1,497 posts, read 950,088 times
Reputation: 695
Augusta (Richmond County) votes overwhelmingly Democratic but is still rather conservative for the most part...especially on social issues and it tends to be perennially behind on progressive initiatives. I think that is partially because city races are non partisan, and though the mayor is an ex Democratic state senator and identifies as a Democrat.. the Democratic party cannot really inject money or personnel into these races. And for the most part the city is still very much controlled by a small cabal of wealthy white conservatives.. some who actually live in neighboring Columbia County. Since the Democratic party cannot organize and inject money into local races and run candidates, it gives an advantage to the white conservative minority that they would not normally have if the races were partisan.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,059 posts, read 10,423,860 times
Reputation: 6172
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
That's not true, there are more moderated African Americans then most democrats cause of religion but in terms of civil right rights, Healthcare and irony gun control African Americans voted toward the left.

but in terms of most areas being spit that is true. We fall into the blue state red state thinking so much that some people think of some states as conservative utopias and other liberal utopias, it ignores that all states are pretty split.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...States.svg.png

Cities tend to vote blue, rural and outer suburbs red. Which makes my point to Columbia Scientist it's not like rural Washington is much different from rural Georgia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...County.svg.png


The second map proves my point. DC is the only area that is seen as almost totally one color when you look at the circle graphs. Wyoming is the only one that goes to the 3/4 mark red. Every other state is somewhere between the 1/2 line to the 2/3rds line one color or the other. So anywhere you go, the least you will be in the minority is one out of two. In most places you are close to your vote being cancelled by the person standing next to you.

The bottom maps show which counties went red, which went blue. Urban counties that are more populated went blue, the rural and many suburban ones went red. No news there. But when comparing that to the map above, it looks like a red county went 100% red and a blue county went 100% blue. It is not the case. When you average the whole, it is still less than ten percent that swing the country red or blue. Most of these counties outside core urban areas, when looked at individually, still fall in the realm of 51% to 60 something% one color or the other. Again, wherever you live, your voting preference might not be with the majority, but a majority can be as small as 50.001% and the minority 49.999%.

I'm here to denounce this whole mindset of us vs. them and urban vs. rural and red vs. blue and we can't abide people who vote differently from us. I have four kids. One was an avid Bernie supporter but then became the biggest Trump supporter because he couldn't abide Hilary and blamed her and the DNC for ousting Bernie. My second is the Christian conservative voter that was more a supporter of a Cruz or a Rubio because of social conservatism and either held her breath and voted for Trump or maybe didn't vote as she couldn't stand him. Number three is my most Texan, cowboy boot wearing, dear hunting, pickup truck driving and was pro Trump all the way. My number four is at UT Austin and a proud feminist and might be a snowflake in some people's mindset... pro Bernie at first but whole hog Hilary supporter after Bernie went bye bye.


You know what? We love each other. We get together and laugh and play games and attend church and go to movies and play with the dogs and do life together whenever we can get together (which is less frequent as they enter their adulthood). There are more important things than politics and when you disdain another person for their political views and prop your own-self up as superior to another because of their right to vote for whomever they want and make value judgments on them because of why they voted for said person when you have no clue, NO CLUE why a person may feel led to vote a certain way, you are a shallow person indeed.


Rant over, soap box stored....

Last edited by Saintmarks; 04-03-2018 at 03:21 PM..
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