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Old 04-25-2018, 05:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Pretty interesting history lesson.

There was something about GA-400 / U.S. 19 that kind of struck a few questions.

I don't know for sure on this but I thought for a good while (like during the 80's and 90's) that U.S. 19 followed Hwy 9 and GA-400 was not cosigned with U.S. 19 until later...around the same time that they renumbered all the exits... I could be wrong about this though, but for awhile I thought GA-400 was by itself for its entire route where as today its cosigned with U.S. 19 from I-285 until its terminus.
You are correct that US Highway 19 originally followed Georgia State Route 9 all the way from its southern terminus at the intersection of 14th Street and Northside Drive in Atlanta up to about 8-9 miles north of Dahlonega in northern Lumpkin County in the North Georgia Mountains.

If I am correct, I think that the US 19 designation was removed from GA 9 north and co-signed with GA 400 north of the Top End I-285 Perimeter in the very early 1980's (probably about 1980 or 1981) when the original OTP portion of GA 400 was completed between I-285 and the GA 60 junction south of Dahlonega in Lumpkin County.

The GA 9 route continues to be co-signed with US 19 ITP from I-285 south to the southern terminus of GA 9 in West Midtown Atlanta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Another thing I'd like to note though is that GA-400 / U.S. 19 cosign.. generally throughout the country with very few exceptions, if there is a reasonable limited access route running in the same route / direction as a U.S. Highway, the U.S. Highway and State Maintained Freeway will generally share the same right of way (or cosign) as to steer interstate commerce traffic away from the cores of small towns or suburban communities and onto a route that can handle dedicated commercial traffic. Now what I DON'T know, is if this means the freeway receives federal funding... I "think" it does, but not 100% sure on it...
That is an excellent question as to whether a superhighway route like GA 400 North OTP receives federal funding because of its co-designation with US 19 from I-285 north to the GA 60 junction in Lumpkin County.

I know superhighway right-of-ways with an Interstate designation generally get direct federal funding (traditionally in the neighborhood of about 90% federal funding when Interstates are built). I also know that the state-maintained highway network in general gets much of its budget from federal aid (reportedly somewhere in the neighborhood of about 60-65% of Georgia's state road maintenance budget in some recent years was coming from the Feds)... Something which means that even non-Interstate routes are being largely indirectly funded by the Feds.

But I do not know if a superhighway right-of-way like GA 400 North OTP gets direct funding from the Feds like the Interstates because of its co-designation with US 19. That is an excellent question which I hope that someone might be able to answer with certainty or at least shed some light on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
but pointing this out to state that the U.S. 19 / GA-400 cosigning is more so a coincidence than a strategic ploy to push higher end employment opportunities into Alpharetta...
This statement raises a very important point: That the co-signing of US 19 onto the GA 400 roadway OTP from I-285 north to the northern terminus of GA 400 in Lumpkin County actually was indeed "a strategic ploy to push higher end employment opportunities into Alpharetta" and North Fulton County and beyond into Forsyth, Dawson and Lumpkin counties.

The Georgia 400 roadway is a developmental highway that was built to bring significantly increased opportunities for both real estate development and economic development to a part of the state of Georgia that (while it may be impossible to imagine today given the extreme prosperity and affluence of North Fulton, Forsyth and Dawson counties) has struggled severely with poverty and social isolation in the not-too-distant past.

The extremely affluent suburban area that today is known as North Fulton County was once a deeply impoverished rural area known as Milton County that became completely insolvent during the Great Depression of the 1930's and as a result was absorbed into Fulton County out of necessity.

Meanwhile, Forsyth County (a booming outer-suburban county with an exploding population which today is recognized by many as one of the absolute most affluent counties in the state of Georgia and one of the more affluent outer-suburban counties in the U.S.) was during the first several decades of the 20th Century a largely impoverished rural Blue Ridge foothills county with an extreme desire for continued isolationism, an ugly history of racial cleansing and an ugly reputation for white supremacism and racism.

The development of Georgia 400 (along with the development of Lake Lanier as an important water source and popular water recreational draw for metro Atlanta) helped to bring a massive amount of outside investment to a part of the state that (while one cannot tell today) sorely needed it.

The GA 400 roadway has helped to turn North Fulton County from a deeply impoverished rural area that struggled to recover from the Great Depression of the 1930's into one of the most prosperous suburban areas in the U.S.

The GA 400 roadway (along with Lake Lanier) has also helped to open up the notorious hotbed of extreme isolationism, racism and white supremacist activity that was Forsyth County to outside investment and likewise also turn it into one of the most prosperous and affluent suburban communities in the nation.

After the GA 400 Extension through Buckhead and Sandy Springs opened up in 1993, that North Fulton/Forsyth/Dawson/Lumpkin corridor exploded and took off like a rocket economically and (with the exception of the Great Recession) has not looked back since.

The construction of GA 400 as a developmental superhighway for the purpose of bringing a high level of economic development opportunities to the once very-troubled North Fulton/Forsyth/Dawson corridor was very much intentional and goes back to your comment about the co-signing of the US 19 routing onto the GA 400 roadway after it was completed circa-1981... Something which can only be speculated was done as a means of both attracting federal aid for the GA 400 superhighway construction project and attracting investment from real estate development and corporate interests with the designation of a federal highway routing (US 19).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
and the REAL peachtree street as we know it today is actually Peachtree Industrial Blvd of which takes you all the way to Gainesville uninterrupted.
That is a good point about PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard).

From Chamblee northward, PIB is actually the most recent replacement of the original Peachtree Road route which actually terminates closer to Dacula than Gainesville. Buford Highway (which also follows parts of the original Peachtree Road route) also replaced parts of the original Peachtree Road route which was basically a winding, curvy, meandering two-lane road that was an upgrade from a previous route that was a meandering Native American trail that followed along a ridge in ancient times.

Though it mostly is a surface road and not a superhighway (except for the portion just outside of I-285 in DeKalb and Gwinnett counties), PIB is also another example of a developmental highway that was built with the intent of generating a high level commercial real estate development opportunities along its corridor.

Though the original routing of Peachtree Road terminated in a slightly more east/northeast direction somewhere between Buford and Dacula on the east side of present-day I-85, PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard) was routed in a more northeast direction towards the east side of Lake Lanier and towards Gainesville. This was done for the purpose of maximizing economic and commercial development opportunities with the famous Peachtree name on a road that runs close to the popular Lake Lanier.
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Old 04-25-2018, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,555 posts, read 8,619,721 times
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Success begets success.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:04 AM
 
5,362 posts, read 4,889,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Absolutely not true. DFW is even more top heavy to the North than we are, by multiple times actually.

Go check it out sometime once you move to Austin for proof of this, or simply ask anyone from the Metroplex...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
DFW has massive business development in those sprawling northern reaches that are becoming true edge cities, something we don't have past Alpharetta.

Again, check it out in person when you move for proof. It's nothing but pure prairie out there in that part of the Metroplex, with none of the impediments to growth that we have. You also need to remember that DFW has 1.5 million more people than we do, and they are mostly to the North.
Those are excellent points that the metropolitan/regional development patterns are much more prevalent to the north side of the metro region in DFW much like they are in Atlanta.

Two main factors that seem to have driven the prevalence of development to the north in DFW are:

1) At least 7 major water supply/flood control reservoirs that are located north of their north-south dividing line (Interstate 30), and...

2) The location of two major commercial airports (Dallas Love Field and Dallas Fort Worth International Airport) on the north side of their metro region.

Not unlike in Atlanta (which has 2 major water supply reservoirs on its far Northside in lakes Allatoona and Lanier), the DFW Metroplex has at least 7 major reservoirs on its north side.

Though, unlike Atlanta (whose sole major airport is located on the south side of the metro area opposite its dominant north side tilting development patterns), DFW has 2 major commercial airports on its north side in close proximity to its dominant north side tilting development pattern.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:19 AM
 
1,137 posts, read 473,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
You are correct that US Highway 19 originally followed Georgia State Route 9 all the way from its southern terminus at the intersection of 14th Street and Northside Drive in Atlanta up to about 8-9 miles north of Dahlonega in northern Lumpkin County in the North Georgia Mountains.

If I am correct, I think that the US 19 designation was removed from GA 9 north and co-signed with GA 400 north of the Top End I-285 Perimeter in the very early 1980's (probably about 1980 or 1981) when the original OTP portion of GA 400 was completed between I-285 and the GA 60 junction south of Dahlonega in Lumpkin County.

The GA 9 route continues to be co-signed with US 19 ITP from I-285 south to the southern terminus of GA 9 in West Midtown Atlanta.


That is an excellent question as to whether a superhighway route like GA 400 North OTP receives federal funding because of its co-designation with US 19 from I-285 north to the GA 60 junction in Lumpkin County.

I know superhighway right-of-ways with an Interstate designation generally get direct federal funding (traditionally in the neighborhood of about 90% federal funding when Interstates are built). I also know that the state-maintained highway network in general gets much of its budget from federal aid (reportedly somewhere in the neighborhood of about 60-65% of Georgia's state road maintenance budget in some recent years was coming from the Feds)... Something which means that even non-Interstate routes are being largely indirectly funded by the Feds.

But I do not know if a superhighway right-of-way like GA 400 North OTP gets direct funding from the Feds like the Interstates because of its co-designation with US 19. That is an excellent question which I hope that someone might be able to answer with certainty or at least shed some light on.


This statement raises a very important point: That the co-signing of US 19 onto the GA 400 roadway OTP from I-285 north to the northern terminus of GA 400 in Lumpkin County actually was indeed "a strategic ploy to push higher end employment opportunities into Alpharetta" and North Fulton County and beyond into Forsyth, Dawson and Lumpkin counties.

The Georgia 400 roadway is a developmental highway that was built to bring significantly increased opportunities for both real estate development and economic development to a part of the state of Georgia that (while it may be impossible to imagine today given the extreme prosperity and affluence of North Fulton, Forsyth and Dawson counties) has struggled severely with poverty and social isolation in the not-too-distant past.

The extremely affluent suburban area that today is known as North Fulton County was once a deeply impoverished rural area known as Milton County that became completely insolvent during the Great Depression of the 1930's and as a result was absorbed into Fulton County out of necessity.

Meanwhile, Forsyth County (a booming outer-suburban county with an exploding population which today is recognized by many as one of the absolute most affluent counties in the state of Georgia and one of the more affluent outer-suburban counties in the U.S.) was during the first several decades of the 20th Century a largely impoverished rural Blue Ridge foothills county with an extreme desire for continued isolationism, an ugly history of racial cleansing and an ugly reputation for white supremacism and racism.

The development of Georgia 400 (along with the development of Lake Lanier as an important water source and popular water recreational draw for metro Atlanta) helped to bring a massive amount of outside investment to a part of the state that (while one cannot tell today) sorely needed it.

The GA 400 roadway has helped to turn North Fulton County from a deeply impoverished rural area that struggled to recover from the Great Depression of the 1930's into one of the most prosperous suburban areas in the U.S.

The GA 400 roadway (along with Lake Lanier) has also helped to open up the notorious hotbed of extreme isolationism, racism and white supremacist activity that was Forsyth County to outside investment and likewise also turn it into one of the most prosperous and affluent suburban communities in the nation.

After the GA 400 Extension through Buckhead and Sandy Springs opened up in 1993, that North Fulton/Forsyth/Dawson/Lumpkin corridor exploded and took off like a rocket economically and (with the exception of the Great Recession) has not looked back since.

The construction of GA 400 as a developmental superhighway for the purpose of bringing a high level of economic development opportunities to the once very-troubled North Fulton/Forsyth/Dawson corridor was very much intentional and goes back to your comment about the co-signing of the US 19 routing onto the GA 400 roadway after it was completed circa-1981... Something which can only be speculated was done as a means of both attracting federal aid for the GA 400 superhighway construction project and attracting investment from real estate development and corporate interests with the designation of a federal highway routing (US 19).


That is a good point about PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard).

From Chamblee northward, PIB is actually the most recent replacement of the original Peachtree Road route which actually terminates closer to Dacula than Gainesville. Buford Highway (which also follows parts of the original Peachtree Road route) also replaced parts of the original Peachtree Road route which was basically a winding, curvy, meandering two-lane road that was an upgrade from a previous route that was a meandering Native American trail that followed along a ridge in ancient times.

Though it mostly is a surface road and not a superhighway (except for the portion just outside of I-285 in DeKalb and Gwinnett counties), PIB is also another example of a developmental highway that was built with the intent of generating a high level commercial real estate development opportunities along its corridor.

Though the original routing of Peachtree Road terminated in a slightly more east/northeast direction somewhere between Buford and Dacula on the east side of present-day I-85, PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard) was routed in a more northeast direction towards the east side of Lake Lanier and towards Gainesville. This was done for the purpose of maximizing economic and commercial development opportunities with the famous Peachtree name on a road that runs close to the popular Lake Lanier.
Interesting about the GA-400 / U.S. 19 cosignment. That would make sense as to why they cosigned it, to bring federal funding to the route. I notice in alot of states there are U.S. Highways that cosign with state route freeways. The same sort of thing also happens in Athens where U.S. 78, U.S. 29, U.S. 441, and U.S. 129 all share the same route as Loop 10 until they depart at specific exits. The same thing also happens in Griffin for a short time, U.S. 19 / U.S. 41 become a short limited access freeway that bypasses Griffin and spurs off Business U.S. 19 / 41. I always thought it was to diverge inter-commerce traffic away from the business district. (Where GA-400 would technically bypass downtown Roswell, downtown Alpharetta, and downtown Cummings.)

Regarding Peachtree Rd, is that alignment now what is as known as Old Peachtree Rd? I've always wondered about that route and if Peachtree Rd really came way out there as I used to live right off of it at the very edge of Lawrenceville right outside of Dacula and about 10 minutes from Mall of Georgia.
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,154 posts, read 16,152,860 times
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Quote:
The Gainesville area where Lake Lanier is located receives an average of over 53 inches of precipitation per year, but areas further to the north in the Blue Ridge Mountains that replenish the Chattahoochee River headwaters and the larger watershed receive upwards of well over 65 inches of precipitation per year on average.
Narrower than many people think, which is why we are so susceptible to drought
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:53 AM
 
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Almost all large cities in the US developed with the nice part of town to the North. There are plenty of doctoral thesis that try to explain it, but most people think the North side is generally up river and or up wind from the industrial part of the city.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:08 AM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Those are excellent points that the metropolitan/regional development patterns are much more prevalent to the north side of the metro region in DFW much like they are in Atlanta.

Two main factors that seem to have driven the prevalence of development to the north in DFW are:

1) At least 7 major water supply/flood control reservoirs that are located north of their north-south dividing line (Interstate 30), and...

2) The location of two major commercial airports (Dallas Love Field and Dallas Fort Worth International Airport) on the north side of their metro region.

Not unlike in Atlanta (which has 2 major water supply reservoirs on its far Northside in lakes Allatoona and Lanier), the DFW Metroplex has at least 7 major reservoirs on its north side.

Though, unlike Atlanta (whose sole major airport is located on the south side of the metro area opposite its dominant north side tilting development patterns), DFW has 2 major commercial airports on its north side in close proximity to its dominant north side tilting development pattern.
For whatever reason, North American cities without geographic restrictions tend to grow to the north and west.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Atlanta and St Simons Island, GA
20,893 posts, read 32,901,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brown_dog_us View Post
Almost all large cities in the US developed with the nice part of town to the North. There are plenty of doctoral thesis that try to explain it, but most people think the North side is generally up river and or up wind from the industrial part of the city.
True, and a viable explanation as to why.
Residential development in a city tends to move in the opposite direction of the industrial areas.
It also explains why so few of the traditional white-collar neighborhoods in Atlanta are located on the south and west sides. It was more important that the blue collar workers have accessibility to employment since the automobile was out of reach for many of them.
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Old 04-25-2018, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconographer View Post
True, and a viable explanation as to why.
Residential development in a city tends to move in the opposite direction of the industrial areas.
It also explains why so few of the traditional white-collar neighborhoods in Atlanta are located on the south and west sides. It was more important that the blue collar workers have accessibility to employment since the automobile was out of reach for many of them.
And yet people want an major airport in the NW part of the metro.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,892 posts, read 9,589,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
DFW has massive business development in those sprawling northern reaches that are becoming true edge cities, something we don't have past Alpharetta.

Again, check it out in person when you move for proof. It's nothing but pure prairie out there in that part of the Metroplex, with none of the impediments to growth that we have. You also need to remember that DFW has 1.5 million more people than we do, and they are mostly to the North.
I can think of the Legacy/Stonebriar area of Plano and Frisco at the intersection of the Dallas North tollway and Texas 121 (Sam Rayburn Tollway) as the furthest north suburban edge city out here. Would say it is on par (if not actually closer) to downtown Dallas as Alpharetta is to Atlanta. Nothing major that would be considered an edge city beyond that.

Considering that the DFW Airport is well north of the line from Fort Worth the Dallas and you have one of the reasons DFW skews northward. Historically, Dallas's old money in the Park Cities north of downtown, much like Buckhead north of downtown Atlanta, gave the Dallas side of the metro area a very similar growth pattern northward as Atlanta. The trendy suburbs are to the north here as well.

Take Fort Worth and its immediate burbs off the metro map and you lose that 1.5 million advantage. Look at Dallas and its immediate burbs and you have a city that lays out much in the same way as Atlanta does.
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