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Old 05-23-2018, 08:32 AM
 
1,294 posts, read 559,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
1. My post is not "case against highways." ........ So not only is your post inaccurate your whole argument above have nothing to do with my post. I would be for Highways in the enter metro if was possible it's not. No poster yet has volunteer their homes, properties, and neighborhood to razed to make new highways.

2. I mention walkablity as if a neighborhoods desire to walkable it's their right to do, walkablity involves pedestrian friendliness. This may involve narrows road and slow speeder limits. This also can mean lesser parking lots and more density stores and etc in their place.

My point was if neighborhood A wants to be more pedestrian friendly, People who chose to live in Neighborhood B a more suburban car oriented life style do not have right to tell neighborhood A to design their neighborhood more car oriented for their commute.

3. My other point is you get what you ask for...... Traffic is a con that go with living a suburban lifestyle commuting distance, If you don't like it change your life style, stop blaming the government for your choice.



As stated repeatedly it's not just Atlanta, Metro Atlanta is design similar other large metro in East cost states. Largely the Northeast and Piedmont cities.

The metro West of the red line are largely grided and have a lot freeways,

The Metro East of the red line are not grided and tend to have less freeways.
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They many have a few others freeways here and there but nothing drastically different.




Large Cities West of the red line tend to be grids, Freeway obsessed






The point I was making there no point of crying, Atlanta can not and never will have the road network of Houston, DFW and LA those metro area are essentially built different.

Boston and DC may not have the road network of DFW, LA and Houston. But other areas like transit, and general more live work play areas excel over DFW, LA and Houston. Atlanta can't follow Houston design but Atlanta can follow DC and Boston.

So No I'm not against roads I'm for road improvement in some areas, but I'm in reality Atlanta is limited with what the region can do improve with roads. So the metro area need to look at alternative means.
The eastern cities are designed this way because they are older and populated much earlier than the western cities. Their initial fabrics never entailed of "freeways" which eventually had to be integrated into their cores. Many Midwestern cities grew either as a RESULT of Freeways, or Freeways were already apart of their fabric thus why they were easily able to accommodate for them. The eastern cities were port cities thus they were initially reliant on trading by sea which is how and why they became so large without highways.

Atlanta's design and Boston's design may look similar but have little to do with each other. The same goes for the rest of the eastern cities.

For starters (as I stated before) these cities started their life as port cities. Atlanta is an inland city that was initially dependent on the railroad. New York, Boston, D.C., ect - all experienced rapid population explosions much earlier than Atlanta (of which Atlanta's occurred mainly because...the freeway.)

Boston, D.C., North Eastern cities could not so easily integrate freeways because they were largely already developed by the time freeways came to be.

Atlanta on the other hand did not incur a population explosion until long after freeways came to be...

The difference is, Boston, D.C. and several Northeastern Cities didn't incorporate as many freeways directly in their metro because they COULDN'T.

Atlanta on the other hand didn't incorporate as many freeways because the movement to do so was haulted, it wasn't because they couldn't...it because they chose not to.

Atlanta actually at one period had a fairly redundant freeway network PLAN and a plan of which was quite feasible and possible at the time, but the ideas were shut down in a freeway revolt..

The lack of freeways in the metro has nothing to do with it being an "Eastern City" - as I might add Miami, Jacksonville, almost all of NC, NYC, Jersey, and several other eastern locations actually have fairly redundant freeway networks - it has to do with the fact that Georgia had absolutely no idea that the metro was going to explode in the way it did as well as the populous of the metro revolting against their presence.

Also becareful - even though some N.E cities do not have as many freeways as the midwestern cities, they DO have alot of Super Arterials, or roads that move high volumes of traffic with as little impedance as possible... and likewise, Boston has 3 bypasses currently...unlike Atlanta, you do not HAVE to drive through Boston to continue passing through the metro...same goes for NYC, and Philadelphia (which I might add also has a redundant freeway network.)

In verdict, you can't just look at a map and compare two cities and say they followed their design or they're similar cities... you have to look at why they're designed the way they are and look at the reasons behind their design.

 
Old 05-23-2018, 01:14 PM
 
5,842 posts, read 5,180,051 times
Reputation: 3899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
The eastern cities are designed this way because they are older and populated much earlier than the western cities. Their initial fabrics never entailed of "freeways" which eventually had to be integrated into their cores. Many Midwestern cities grew either as a RESULT of Freeways, or Freeways were already apart of their fabric thus why they were easily able to accommodate for them. The eastern cities were port cities thus they were initially reliant on trading by sea which is how and why they became so large without highways.

Atlanta's design and Boston's design may look similar but have little to do with each other. The same goes for the rest of the eastern cities.

For starters (as I stated before) these cities started their life as port cities. Atlanta is an inland city that was initially dependent on the railroad. New York, Boston, D.C., ect - all experienced rapid population explosions much earlier than Atlanta (of which Atlanta's occurred mainly because...the freeway.)

Boston, D.C., North Eastern cities could not so easily integrate freeways because they were largely already developed by the time freeways came to be.

Atlanta on the other hand did not incur a population explosion until long after freeways came to be...

The difference is, Boston, D.C. and several Northeastern Cities didn't incorporate as many freeways directly in their metro because they COULDN'T.

Atlanta on the other hand didn't incorporate as many freeways because the movement to do so was haulted, it wasn't because they couldn't...it because they chose not to.

Atlanta actually at one period had a fairly redundant freeway network PLAN and a plan of which was quite feasible and possible at the time, but the ideas were shut down in a freeway revolt..

The lack of freeways in the metro has nothing to do with it being an "Eastern City" - as I might add Miami, Jacksonville, almost all of NC, NYC, Jersey, and several other eastern locations actually have fairly redundant freeway networks - it has to do with the fact that Georgia had absolutely no idea that the metro was going to explode in the way it did as well as the populous of the metro revolting against their presence.

Also becareful - even though some N.E cities do not have as many freeways as the midwestern cities, they DO have alot of Super Arterials, or roads that move high volumes of traffic with as little impedance as possible... and likewise, Boston has 3 bypasses currently...unlike Atlanta, you do not HAVE to drive through Boston to continue passing through the metro...same goes for NYC, and Philadelphia (which I might add also has a redundant freeway network.)

In verdict, you can't just look at a map and compare two cities and say they followed their design or they're similar cities... you have to look at why they're designed the way they are and look at the reasons behind their design.
Excellent points and comments.

Those are especially some good points about cities like Boston, D.C. and several Northeastern cities didn't incorporate as many freeways directly through their urban cores because they couldn't.

Though, one thing that should be noted is that Northeastern cities like Boston and D.C. also planned to build disruptive freeways through their urban cores but were stopped by their own freeway revolts in the 1960's and 1970's just as the construction of additional freeways through Atlanta's urban core was stopped by Intown Atlanta residents during local freeways revolts from the 1960's through the 1980's.

Interstate 95 was actually supposed to be built directly through the District of Columbia but was cancelled and run around the east side of the I-495 Capital Beltway because of spirited and intense opposition to the plan by Intown D.C. residents.

Spirited and intense local opposition (in the form of public freeway revolts during the 1960's and '70's) also prevented more inner-city freeways from being built in other high-density cities across the country like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco and even Chicago as well as even in lower-density cities like Detroit.

Public revolts against additional freeway construction through existing high-density urban/inner-city neighborhoods after the initial construction of the Interstate system through urban cores was pretty much a national movement and not necessarily just concentrated to a city like Atlanta.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 02:48 PM
bu2
 
9,331 posts, read 5,973,501 times
Reputation: 3755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Excellent points and comments.

Those are especially some good points about cities like Boston, D.C. and several Northeastern cities didn't incorporate as many freeways directly through their urban cores because they couldn't.

Though, one thing that should be noted is that Northeastern cities like Boston and D.C. also planned to build disruptive freeways through their urban cores but were stopped by their own freeway revolts in the 1960's and 1970's just as the construction of additional freeways through Atlanta's urban core was stopped by Intown Atlanta residents during local freeways revolts from the 1960's through the 1980's.

Interstate 95 was actually supposed to be built directly through the District of Columbia but was cancelled and run around the east side of the I-495 Capital Beltway because of spirited and intense opposition to the plan by Intown D.C. residents.

Spirited and intense local opposition (in the form of public freeway revolts during the 1960's and '70's) also prevented more inner-city freeways from being built in other high-density cities across the country like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco and even Chicago as well as even in lower-density cities like Detroit.

Public revolts against additional freeway construction through existing high-density urban/inner-city neighborhoods after the initial construction of the Interstate system through urban cores was pretty much a national movement and not necessarily just concentrated to a city like Atlanta.
As with many things, Atlanta just got around to infrastructure late (water and transit could be added to roads as being late). Some really critical redundancy got put off until the freeway revolts spread here.
You are right that it was national. Even Houston had one short stretch cancelled (Hwy 225 in the east was supposed to go all the way downtown instead of stopping a half mile inside Loop 610).
 
Old 05-23-2018, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,783 posts, read 16,775,696 times
Reputation: 5133
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
As with many things, Atlanta just got around to infrastructure late (water and transit could be added to roads as being late). Some really critical redundancy got put off until the freeway revolts spread here.
You are right that it was national. Even Houston had one short stretch cancelled (Hwy 225 in the east was supposed to go all the way downtown instead of stopping a half mile inside Loop 610).
Atlanta had a great streetcar/interurban system stretching from Marietta, Brookhaven, Stone Mountain.
 
Old 05-24-2018, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,746 posts, read 8,917,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Atlanta had a great streetcar/interurban system stretching from Marietta, Brookhaven, Stone Mountain.
Yes, it did. You are so very correct. And, it is a shame that network was abandoned.
 
Old 05-24-2018, 10:05 PM
 
4,551 posts, read 3,008,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Atlanta had a great streetcar/interurban system stretching from Marietta, Brookhaven, Stone Mountain.
Not to discount the system (it was very nice and should never have been abandoned), but it followed the same pattern our busses do: they nearly all run a spoke system to downtown and midtown. There are very few cross routes. Of course, that was at a different time, where most of the routes only went 4-5 miles out and most jobs probably were downtown/midtown.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,783 posts, read 16,775,696 times
Reputation: 5133
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Not to discount the system (it was very nice and should never have been abandoned), but it followed the same pattern our busses do: they nearly all run a spoke system to downtown and midtown. There are very few cross routes. Of course, that was at a different time, where most of the routes only went 4-5 miles out and most jobs probably were downtown/midtown.
Atlanta was a lot more dense back then too, we didn't have huge freeway interchanges cutting up our grid. Our city was not car-centric then so yes commercial activity concentrated in Downtown. Midtown was residential.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 02:14 PM
 
1,294 posts, read 559,570 times
Reputation: 1084
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Atlanta was a lot more dense back then too, we didn't have huge freeway interchanges cutting up our grid. Our city was not car-centric then so yes commercial activity concentrated in Downtown. Midtown was residential.
You mean in Downtown specifically?

Freeway interchanges in Atlanta metro in the grand scheme of things arent anywhere near as space disruptive as they are in other major cities. Even Atlanta's larger interchanges by todays standards are fairly small in comparison to the mega interchanges being designed today by Texas, NC, Washington D.C. and some existing already in places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, and the like...

Could they be better? Yes...but feasibly, no - My personal dream design for the Atlanta metro freeways is a setup similar to Peachtree Industrial Blvd - besides its major interchange with I-285 and its northern terminus.. it handles high volumes of traffic quite well for a 6 lane road with 4 additional access road lanes...but people would likely hate it as it would make Atlanta look too much like Texas... admittedly after driving in Texas for alittle while the access road thing is a love / hate relationship... great for redundancy but its difficult drive due to the frequent weaving, merging, and U-Turns are a pain and there are alot of abandoned shopping centers on the side of the freeways in some places..

But at the cost of redesigning ever major interchange, mass transit would be far more impactful. The only additional highway Atlanta really NEEDS is an outer perimeter... The rest could be solved with an efficient transit system.
 
Old 05-25-2018, 02:22 PM
 
Location: City of Trees
1,061 posts, read 898,285 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
The Downtown Connector will not see any increase in capacity, it's built out. Land acquisition would be too high and then what do you do about the W Peachtree crossing? That's a MARTA station above the freeway.
Suburban Atlanta may need more roads, but City of Atlanta does not need more or wider streets.
Bingo!
 
Old 05-25-2018, 02:29 PM
 
Location: 352
5,087 posts, read 3,650,365 times
Reputation: 3428
From how I see it, Atlanta's planning back in the day severely lacked foresight, and now the current generations are having to pay for it - no pun intended. Though we're not doing the best job either to fix those past mistakes.

- Part A: the Connector was a terrible, terrible idea. Probably the dumbest idea ever. I know 85 and 75 weren't the crowded corridors back then that they are now, but still? This wasn't done in Houston, Dallas, Birmingham, Charlotte, DC, Nashville, LA, Philly, etc, etc. Off the top of my head, I can't think another major city that decided to funnel two major highways into one...

- Part B: ...through such a busy corridor. The Connector goes through I assume is the busiest point in the southeast. It'd be different if 85 and 75 met in a less congested place, like how 85 and 40 meet in suburban Burlington, NC, but having them do it at the regions busiest job center was just, stupid.

- Too many exits. Looking at the connector (and surface parking everywhere), you can tell just how much the old generations valued that car commute. Every single street doesn't need an exit. One way you could help unclog the connector would be to close some exits, and maybe detach Freedom Pkwy, but yeah... The Connectors clogged bottleneck creates a ripple effect.

- Can't fault Atlanta for sprawling outward. Atlanta boomed right when that was the style. Cities all over the country were doing it. That said, regional planning could have been better. Atlanta could've took the approach of maybe Phoenix, Albuquerque, or DC. More tightly packed suburbs, less meandering roads. You can still have the mcmansions and huge SFH lots without developments taking up giant swaths of open land.

- Lack of grid. I heard somewhere that one reason Atlanta has so many meandering roads is because so many different owners did/didn't want routes going through their land, or built their own roads how they wanted, and then Atlanta had to play connect the dots. Regardless if that's true or not, one thing that I reallyyy loathe about Atlanta is the lack of a true grid. Grid's just make things easier. I'll take Atlanta over Dallas any day, but I won't lie and say Dallas isn't easier to navigate.

- Other places like NOVA may lack a true wide grid too, but yet its still easier to get N/S, E/W. Traffic aside, try going from Northlake to the airport without getting on 285... Try going from Cumberland to Chamblee without 285, 85 or 75. Getting from Decatur to Vinings without a freeway looks like a major chore. Also because of the lack of grid, many workers in Cumberland, SS, Buckhead, etc have no choice but to use the freeway. In NOVA, you can get around Arlington and Alexandria fine without the freeway. You don't need it to get to and from Tysons either. Not really needed to get to/from Bethesda or Silver Spring either. Yet getting back into Cobb from Sandy Springs without 75 is a real chore. I wish Atlanta leaders back in the day had more foresight and tried to grid as much as possible and build Atlanta's office centers more accessible in general.

- Atlanta really needed that outer loop. GA should've challenged it and gone forward. Trucks clog up 85, 75 and 285. They could've taken the outer loop, making driving less white knuckle. Plus regional drivers would have a true bypass. If you want to drive from Charlotte to Birmingham, but get caught on 285 at the wrong time, then it fails to serves it's purpose - as a bypass. Atlanta needed a true bypass before the sprawl got in the way. Now, funding aside, it's probably too late.

- Missing the chances on MARTA. Really dropped the ball on expanding the rail back in the day to coincide with the booming car growth. Wish old school attitudes weren't how they were in terms of race, funding, "they're going to take the train and come steal my TV", etc.

- Lack of commuter rail. Even Nashville has it. It's not much, but it's better than nothing. Amazing Atlanta, one of the biggest rail centers in the country, has no commuter rail.

- I will say I'm glad most of Atlanta wasn't tore up by freeways. That was a terrible idea that has decayed many cities. Can't imagine a giant freeway running through Virginia Highland. Yet it's a shame many black neighborhoods were wiped off the map. Atlanta didn't need to build freeways everywhere back then to fix traffic now, just needed better planning.

Atlanta and Georgia has done a great job in other things: landing companies, growing diverse population, maintaining a world leading airport, educational institutions, art and culture, etc. Atlanta is the epitome of southern progress. Yet, leaders failed with road and sprawl growth, and it's a shame. The connector idea, the lack of a wide grid, not building the outer loop, and not controlling sprawl more carefully just created a recipe for road disaster. And now it's too late to fix a lot of infrastructure and attitudes. Just imagine how much better things would be if 1. trucks were taken off 285 and Gwinnett 85, 2. out of towners were taken off the Connector and 285, and C. it was easier to get E/W, N/S. Things would probably look a lot different today.

That said, Atlanta isn't doomed, LA, NY, SF, DC, etc still function. Traffic aside, Atlanta still offers a great QOL, but you still can't help but imagine how different things could've been.
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