U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-26-2018, 06:09 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 544,568 times
Reputation: 1052

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I just wanted to note that while I would be ALL for a metro rail (MARTA or even Light Rail) within the median of the highway, the section noted in the median is really only open for about a quarter of a mile. That section is a section that used to be the HOV lane before they built the 17th street bridge and reworked a good bit of I-75/85 around the area they merge. I was kind of hoping they would do something like put a vegetated median there but they did absolutely nothing there.

As for what we can do about it?

Find some way to politically enforce a growth of rapid transit throughout the metro, and not just a whole slew of BRT's, I mean Trains. Atlanta has more than enough railroads to have a Chicago style commuter rail system. Push MARTA into the suburbs, restrict zone density by nearby transit hubs outside of the perimeter to ensure that these nearby hubs don't over encumber these transit centers by their presence alone (making it feasible and realistic for other commuters to use them.)

Also, building a tolled and zoning restricted outer bypass is long needed, mainly for trucks and getting them off I-285.

There are many other things that can be done even in the road department that can take pressure off of the metro's surface streets and Interstates as well, such as upgrading super arterials with tolled overpasses over congested intersections for example.

 
Old 05-26-2018, 07:19 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
We work on vastly expanding our transit network while not choking our road network, possibly strengthening it as well. Note: there are places where a road can be made better by removing a travel lane and instead having turn lanes. It's not always about adding lanes. But it's not always about just plopping transit/bike lanes down wherever and saying "give us your lanes".
Agreed. There are places in the metro where adding more road for cars is the right solution and it is not about taking lanes from drivers just to be mean and turning over all or most or even a double-digit % of total lane-miles to transit, but if you agree that it does make sense in some places when there is finite space and high demand to replace a traffic lane or two and that on the whole we need a smaller percentage of people in the metro driving then there is nothing for us to argue about on this.
 
Old 05-27-2018, 10:09 AM
 
1,371 posts, read 585,043 times
Reputation: 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Find some way to politically enforce a growth of rapid transit throughout the metro, and not just a whole slew of BRT's, I mean Trains. Atlanta has more than enough railroads to have a Chicago style commuter rail system. Push MARTA into the suburbs, restrict zone density by nearby transit hubs outside of the perimeter to ensure that these nearby hubs don't over encumber these transit centers by their presence alone (making it feasible and realistic for other commuters to use them.)
The main thing preventing a Chicago-type commuter rail system from happening is the fact that CSX and Norfolk Southern refuse to relinquish any of their capacity for passenger trains.

And for a understandable reason. That's one of the double-edged swords that comes along with being a logistics hub.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,843 posts, read 2,066,718 times
Reputation: 2041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
I just wanted to note that while I would be ALL for a metro rail (MARTA or even Light Rail) within the median of the highway, the section noted in the median is really only open for about a quarter of a mile. That section is a section that used to be the HOV lane before they built the 17th street bridge and reworked a good bit of I-75/85 around the area they merge. I was kind of hoping they would do something like put a vegetated median there but they did absolutely nothing there.

As for what we can do about it?

Find some way to politically enforce a growth of rapid transit throughout the metro, and not just a whole slew of BRT's, I mean Trains. Atlanta has more than enough railroads to have a Chicago style commuter rail system. Push MARTA into the suburbs, restrict zone density by nearby transit hubs outside of the perimeter to ensure that these nearby hubs don't over encumber these transit centers by their presence alone (making it feasible and realistic for other commuters to use them.)

Also, building a tolled and zoning restricted outer bypass is long needed, mainly for trucks and getting them off I-285.

There are many other things that can be done even in the road department that can take pressure off of the metro's surface streets and Interstates as well, such as upgrading super arterials with tolled overpasses over congested intersections for example.
They should get the "roach coaches", I mean the food trucks out on that concrete median, or a mini dogwood festival.


The cars are always crawling slow enough that they could point at their selection and someone runs & delivers to their car.


Railroads won't share tracks, and one new line cost billions to build & millions to operate.

I wish people would move on from this unrealistic "rail lines everywhere", not even China builds rail in all directions as main form of transport.

It's be like the price of building New York's entire 700 miles of rail lines today. Trillions!
 
Old 05-28-2018, 08:26 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I wish people would move on from this unrealistic "rail lines everywhere", not even China builds rail in all directions as main form of transport.

It's be like the price of building New York's entire 700 miles of rail lines today. Trillions!
You say "rail as the main form of transport" is unrealistic then in your next sentence you mention New York City which is one of multiple places where the majority of people commute by rail.

And isn't that really a lesson in how we should not wait to build more rail transit options (or at least not have ripped out the dozens of rail transit lines cover the Atlanta metro in the past)?

What do you think the alternative is? The trillions we are spending on roads is not cutting it. We are dropping a billion at a time just trying to keep highway interchanges updated, let alone costs of something like the "Big Dig" which costs $22 Billion for 1.5 miles. Compare that to the often-critiqued-for-being-expensive new Second Avenue Subway Line in NYC which has ~three times the capacity and is 8.5 miles in length for ~$17B (elsewhere new subway is being built for many times cheaper).

Does that mean Atlanta needs to become NYC and have a majority of people commuting by rail next year? No. But it does mean we can learn a thing or two from how larger cities are moving people around if we want to continue to grow. There are no larger cities that effectively move people around and do it 90%+ by car.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 09:05 AM
 
1,371 posts, read 585,043 times
Reputation: 1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
You say "rail as the main form of transport" is unrealistic then in your next sentence you mention New York City which is one of multiple places where the majority of people commute by rail.

And isn't that really a lesson in how we should not wait to build more rail transit options (or at least not have ripped out the dozens of rail transit lines cover the Atlanta metro in the past)?

What do you think the alternative is? The trillions we are spending on roads is not cutting it. We are dropping a billion at a time just trying to keep highway interchanges updated, let alone costs of something like the "Big Dig" which costs $22 Billion for 1.5 miles. Compare that to the often-critiqued-for-being-expensive new Second Avenue Subway Line in NYC which has ~three times the capacity and is 8.5 miles in length for ~$17B (elsewhere new subway is being built for many times cheaper).

Does that mean Atlanta needs to become NYC and have a majority of people commuting by rail next year? No. But it does mean we can learn a thing or two from how larger cities are moving people around if we want to continue to grow. There are no larger cities that effectively move people around and do it 90%+ by car.
The poster does have a point though, as far as how to pay for it.

NYC's system was built at a time when labor and environmental costs were a non-factor (which made such massive projects much cheaper). Also, it was built at a time when companies and the government alike were actually very generous with spending money for infrastructure improvements.

Neither of those factors are applicable in 2018.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 09:44 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by citidata18 View Post
The poster does have a point though, as far as how to pay for it.

NYC's system was built at a time when labor and environmental costs were a non-factor (which made such massive projects much cheaper). Also, it was built at a time when companies and the government alike were actually very generous with spending money for infrastructure improvements.

Neither of those factors are applicable in 2018.
True. I would identify government trying to build transit itself is a bigger underlying factor that contributes significantly to those higher costs. In the past and elsewhere in the world it was much more of a private partnership. We need to get back more to that.

Road projects are also suffer from those same costs issues as well. So all I am saying is if we are going to be strategic in how we spend our finite infrastructure subsidies, we (metro Atlanta) need to shift much more towards transit.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 10:57 AM
 
1,252 posts, read 544,568 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
They should get the "roach coaches", I mean the food trucks out on that concrete median, or a mini dogwood festival.


The cars are always crawling slow enough that they could point at their selection and someone runs & delivers to their car.


Railroads won't share tracks, and one new line cost billions to build & millions to operate.

I wish people would move on from this unrealistic "rail lines everywhere", not even China builds rail in all directions as main form of transport.

It's be like the price of building New York's entire 700 miles of rail lines today. Trillions!
I can't disagree with this .. but I would like to state that massive rail projects in the United States are not entirely over. Los Angeles is building a massive network and by year 2030 intends to have a rail network capable of competing with New York's. For a city that size and sprawl, that definitely can't be cheap...but it is still possible so to speak.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 11:06 AM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
You say "rail as the main form of transport" is unrealistic then in your next sentence you mention New York City which is one of multiple places where the majority of people commute by rail.
56% of the population of New York city uses any form of public transportation, not just rail. About 43% use some form of rail. Can't think of anywhere else in the US where a majority commutes by rail. In fact, I think only NYC has a majority using transit of any type. There may be a few international cities where the majority use rail, but I don't think even London meets this (I think London is majority car).

Quote:
What do you think the alternative is? The trillions we are spending on roads is not cutting it.
Who is spending trillions? If we multiplied GDOT's entire budget by ten, then applied that to all 50 states, then we'd hit just over $1 trillion nationwide per year. I don't know if I'd say we're spending "trillions" unless you're talking over long periods of time.

Quote:
We are dropping a billion at a time just trying to keep highway interchanges updated,
A billion on one of the busiest intersections in the southeast which has remained relatively untouched for almost 50 years. If you amortize that, it's $20 million a year.

Quote:
let alone costs of something like the "Big Dig" which costs $22 Billion for 1.5 miles.
Uh, this is straight up false. The Big Dig included more than just the 1.5 miles of I-93. It added new bridges over the Charles river. It also added a brand new 3.5 mile extension of I-90 under the bay with a direct connection to Boston's airport, funneling airport and northern-bound traffic out of downtown Boston. And...it added tons of new park space right in downtown Boston, including fountains, carousels, and other attractions. I believe there were also public transportation projects included, such as the Silver Line Tunnel. Of course, a large part of the cost overrun was negligence, and a large part of the final cost is interest, since they didn't pay the costs up front or in a timely manner. The actual project cost is nowhere near $22B.
 
Old 05-28-2018, 11:32 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Sam - Yes, we are talking over much longer periods of time than one year with projects like this. How many miles would you like to attribute to the Big Dig? I think you are going to struggle to find a way to consider it longer than the cheaper, higher capacity 8.5 mile Second Street Subway.

Seriously Sam, why do you feel a need to argue with everything I say no matter what I say? We have gotten into it on all these sort of topics before and we end up agreeing on the major points almost every time when we get down to it.

If I were to say the sky is blue I think you would spend an hour writing a line by line response on how the sky is really more of a cyan. Really, what are you getting at? It is getting old.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top