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Old 05-28-2018, 10:42 PM
 
311 posts, read 111,097 times
Reputation: 405

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Agreed.



Not the "only" suggestion, but the main one. Right there with congestion tolling.

What solution do you have in mind?
Every solutions not offered by in this thread by anti-car nuts.
Since, 5.5 million people are not going to be able crowd around within walking distance of our Marta stations anytime in the near future.

 
Old 05-29-2018, 10:19 AM
 
1,269 posts, read 549,303 times
Reputation: 1060
I would like to once more note that projects on the scale of the Big Dig are fairly rare. Tunnels in general are very expensive, cutting a wide highway through the core of a business district of Boston only heightens those costs. It was probably one of the most expensive projects in American History. That stated its not exactly rational to compare The Big Dig with the feasibility of normal highway expansion or building a surface level highway... There were far more variables and factors involved in even the planning and design on that highway and a project of this scale is far from your typical road construction, there are reasons it was so expensive.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4N0ZmZawic

My personal opinion of the Boston Big Dig is it was justified given the outcome it produced. Boston already has a fairly extensive transit system so it wasn't like they were building a car centric city, but instead immensely improving an existing system that had many flaws. On top of which, the Boston Big Dig actually worked. It cut commute times in half through the core of Boston while at the same time opening up space and parks to the surface level. Boston's core was gentrified over the relocation of those highways as well and projects like this - despite their costs are not so uncommon. Today even Birmingham is looking into relocating I-20 / I-59 outside of their core.

Boston Before:












https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XixzRY7MOg0

Boston After:
















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cDTHe2ph_M

===========

You can't look at projects entirely by their cost, but also by their product.. its a BIG difference (and a huge improvement both environmentally and trafficwise) per what the Big Dig did to Boston versus leaving those Elevated Structures there.

And once more...Comparing road construction to a Mega Project like the Boston Big Dig is a HUGE stretch. It is slated to be one of the countries most expensive project - not your typical interstate construction.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,731 posts, read 16,732,445 times
Reputation: 5107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
I would like to once more note that projects on the scale of the Big Dig are fairly rare. Tunnels in general are very expensive, cutting a wide highway through the core of a business district of Boston only heightens those costs. It was probably one of the most expensive projects in American History. That stated its not exactly rational to compare The Big Dig with the feasibility of normal highway expansion or building a surface level highway... There were far more variables and factors involved in even the planning and design on that highway and a project of this scale is far from your typical road construction, there are reasons it was so expensive.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4N0ZmZawic

My personal opinion of the Boston Big Dig is it was justified given the outcome it produced. Boston already has a fairly extensive transit system so it wasn't like they were building a car centric city, but instead immensely improving an existing system that had many flaws. On top of which, the Boston Big Dig actually worked. It cut commute times in half through the core of Boston while at the same time opening up space and parks to the surface level. Boston's core was gentrified over the relocation of those highways as well and projects like this - despite their costs are not so uncommon. Today even Birmingham is looking into relocating I-20 / I-59 outside of their core.

Boston Before:












https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XixzRY7MOg0

Boston After:
















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cDTHe2ph_M

===========

You can't look at projects entirely by their cost, but also by their product.. its a BIG difference (and a huge improvement both environmentally and trafficwise) per what the Big Dig did to Boston versus leaving those Elevated Structures there.

And once more...Comparing road construction to a Mega Project like the Boston Big Dig is a HUGE stretch. It is slated to be one of the countries most expensive project - not your typical interstate construction.
The Big Dig was sorely needed and improved Boston's core.

Birmingham is currently replacing the elevated I-20/59 freeway section and widening 11th Ave N, further separating downtown Birmingham from it's northern neighborhoods.
https://rp.dot.state.al.us/I59_20/
 
Old 05-29-2018, 02:38 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
Every solutions not offered by in this thread by anti-car nuts.
What are those solutions? I must have missed them.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 02:47 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
My personal opinion of the Boston Big Dig is it was justified given the outcome it produced. Boston already has a fairly extensive transit system so it wasn't like they were building a car centric city, but instead immensely improving an existing system that had many flaws. On top of which, the Boston Big Dig actually worked. It cut commute times in half through the core of Boston while at the same time opening up space and parks to the surface level. Boston's core was gentrified over the relocation of those highways as well and projects like this - despite their costs are not so uncommon. Today even Birmingham is looking into relocating I-20 / I-59 outside of their core.
Much lower cost freeway removal (or at least Freeway-to-Boulevard / relocation out of the core) projects are the way to go rather than putting them underground. Freeways through urban cores are just not really sustainable and should not have happened in the first place.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 02:56 PM
 
4,531 posts, read 2,993,209 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
The Big Dig was sorely needed and improved Boston's core.

Birmingham is currently replacing the elevated I-20/59 freeway section and widening 11th Ave N, further separating downtown Birmingham from it's northern neighborhoods.
https://rp.dot.state.al.us/I59_20/
Did we look at the same project? According to documentation from your link, 11th Ave does not appear to have any widening done to it. In fact, it appears that the east 800' of it is being removed to add an entrance ramp to 20 and 65. That means that they lose that part of 11th they would have to cross, and they can instead walk on continuous sidewalks under the bridge downtown, where I could not get enough. 11th is also losing the exit ramp from I-20 on its eastern end, instead pushing exiting traffic towards 10th and 25th (towards the civic center and downtown), reducing the amount of traffic on 11th. I don't see how this harms those neighborhoods.

I've worked at that arena, stayed at the hotel next door, and partied on the south side. Didn't feel at all disconnected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Much lower cost freeway removal (or at least Freeway-to-Boulevard / relocation out of the core) projects are the way to go rather than putting them underground. Freeways through urban cores are just not really sustainable and should not have happened in the first place.
So, looking at Boston, how would you re-route I-93?

Removal would have not passed any sort of vote, guarantee it.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 03:20 PM
 
1,269 posts, read 549,303 times
Reputation: 1060
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Much lower cost freeway removal (or at least Freeway-to-Boulevard / relocation out of the core) projects are the way to go rather than putting them underground. Freeways through urban cores are just not really sustainable and should not have happened in the first place.
Noting this is also impractical and pretty much impossible given I-93 and I-90 are Interstate Highways and apart of the National Defense System.

Given they spent 22 Billion to relocate the highways underground (which had quite a nice turn out I might add) versus removing them shows their logistical and political importance in priority alone.

Also major freeways (like I-93 given its a regional connector) that suddenly converted into a Boulevard through downtown Boston would wreak havoc through either the Business District, or over-encumbering alternative routes through suburban communities of which are not designed to carry the through traffic that I-93 receives.

Lets focus on Atlanta... ...I think Boston has it figured it...Even on its worse day its still exponentially easier to get around Boston than it is the Atlanta metro (by bus, train or even car.)...and please don't attempt to recommend removing the connector...actually no...just go ahead and try that...yeah...remove the downtown connector...lets see where that goes

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 05-29-2018 at 03:32 PM..
 
Old 05-29-2018, 03:35 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
So, looking at Boston, how would you re-route I-93?

Removal would have not passed any sort of vote, guarantee it.
Probably just have I-93 start by split off I-95 on the north side of Boston instead of splitting off from I-95 on the south side of the city.

Really just depends who is voting and what is on the ballot. Like many cities, Boston has a strong history of freeway revolts that got highway projects canceled and removed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highwa...#Massachusetts

The thing is the status quo was not sustainable. The central artery was rusting. Especially if you throw in the added tax increase needed to fund it, I doubt the "Big Dig" would have been the winning vote.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 03:39 PM
 
311 posts, read 111,097 times
Reputation: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Noting this is also impractical and pretty much impossible given I-93 and I-90 are Interstate Highways and apart of the National Defense System.

Given they spent 22 Billion to relocate the highways underground (which had quite a nice turn out I might add) versus removing them shows their logistical and political importance in priority alone.

Also major freeways (like I-93 given its a regional connector) that suddenly converted into a Boulevard through downtown Boston would wreak havoc through either the Business District, or over-encumbering alternative routes through suburban communities of which are not designed to carry the through traffic that I-93 receives.

Lets focus on Atlanta... ...I think Boston has it figured it...Even on its worse day its still exponentially easier to get around Boston than it is the Atlanta metro (by bus, train or even car.)...and please don't attempt to recommend removing the connector...actually no...just go ahead and try that...yeah...remove the downtown connector...lets see where that goes

They would try to suggest it and I am starting to think that poster is a libertarian anti-car troll. They apparently believe no suggestions to alleviate Atlanta's traffic have been made except for 5.5 million people to move within walking distance of marta.
 
Old 05-29-2018, 03:50 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Lets focus on Atlanta... ...I think Boston has it figured it...Even on its worse day its still exponentially easier to get around Boston than it is the Atlanta metro (by bus, train or even car.)...and please don't attempt to recommend removing the connector...actually no...just go ahead and try that...yeah...remove the downtown connector...lets see where that goes
Boston is just another lesson in how making it easier to get around is really just more about better options, even the Big Dig did not fix traffic. I have a good friend that now lives in North Qunicy that I visit and any time we drive to the airport (10 miles) or downtown you basically never get much above 30mph no matter the time of day. You still have to hop off the highway to take surface streets to go faster.

Our downtown connector should not have been built, but at this point they need to institute congestion tolls and use that money to close about half the on/off ramps (to improve traffic flow on the connector) downsize the highway based on the new demand and cap it to reconnect the most of the street grid that was cut off when it was built.
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