Atlanta’s relationship with the automobile is reaching a crossroads. (Roswell: income, taxes)

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

You mean the fact that most people don’t have alternative ways to get work here and many more can’t aford to pay a toll just to get to work?

I know you could care less about the "poors" but that not how you run a society.

Tolling would cause our current traffic bottlenecks to be a magnitude worse, and for those get e-passes, the infrastructure would be very expensive. I just don't see it ever happening.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

What if the employers found it too hard to attract employees to the urban core and moved out to the suburbs?

What if employers found it too hard to attract employees to the car-dependent suburbs and moved in to the urban core near transit?

Oh wait, that is already happening... No need to worry about that hypothetical.

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

In either case, we can beat at this all day and night but realistically...

Atlanta is not going to toll its inner-city highways. They havent even thought of proposing that... nor would I recommend they try it especially while there's no transit throughout most of the metro.

Unforunately its equally unlikely that we will see the major corridors we need in the suburbs either built, or upgraded...

Right now it seems the only real hope is Transit, which has some promising things but Im not exactly excited yet...I want to see what they they actually do.

Not only that, but tolling existing interstate lanes is illegal at the federal level so I am not expecting it to happen any time soon. I am just putting out there what the simplest way to reduce traffic congestion is. I am not in traffic much anyways so I personally benefit more from transit expansion than free flowing highways. I agree that transit (and legalizing more density around it) is best way forward at this point. Just don't expect that to stop traffic congestion from continually getting worse.

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

You mean the fact that most people don’t have alternative ways to get work here and many more can’t aford to pay a toll just to get to work?

I know you could care less about the "poors" but that not how you run a society.

Even with free roads the poorest cannot afford to drive. Cars cost thousands and thousands of dollars a year where as walking, biking, and transit commutes are a few hundred.

If you want to help the poor, stop forcing them into car dependent situations where they have to spend money on a car in order to survive.



https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/...-hurt-the-poor




Also, you are still not offering any alternative solutions yourself. Just poo-pooing mine. What do you think the solution is?

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by bu2

But Atlanta NEEDS more roads. . .

That would appear to be a logical conclusion, except for the fact that cities are constrained by their finite surface area. And roads have a built-in limitation, regardless of the speed limit, to roughly 2000 vehicles per hour per lane.

The remedy is a renaissance of rail based transit - not just the puny streetcar and limited subway.

Why?
A single track has the carrying capacity of 9 lanes of superhighway.

NY Subway's 4 track system is the equivalent of 36 lanes of superhighway.

Atlanta was once the major terminal for passenger railroads in the south, and has the potential to rebuild those rights of way with dedicated passenger - only tracks.

Forget "high speed rail" and aim for “higher-speed rail” (between 90 mph (140 km/h) and 110 mph (180 km/h)) for passenger, commuter and fast freight to and from the many suburbs. If just 50% migrate to trains, that would end the gridlock.

Electric traction rail is the most efficient form of land transportation. It has the best potential for dominating the 21st century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

One line of light rail has a theoretical capacity of up to 8 times more than one lane of freeway (not counting buses) during peak times. Roads have ultimate capacity limits that can be determined by traffic engineering. They usually experience a chaotic breakdown in flow and a dramatic drop in speed (colloquially known as a traffic jam) if they exceed about 2,000 vehicles per hour per lane (each car roughly two seconds behind another). Since most people who drive to work or on business trips do so alone, studies show that the average car occupancy on many roads carrying commuters is only about 1.2 people per car during the high-demand rush hour periods of the day. This combination of factors limits roads carrying only automobile commuters to a maximum observed capacity of about 2,400 passengers per hour per lane. The problem can be mitigated by using high-occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes and introducing ride-sharing programs, but in most cases the solution adopted has been to add more lanes to the roads. Simple arithmetic shows that in order to carry 20,000 automobile commuters per hour per direction, a freeway must be at least 18 lanes wide.

By contrast, light rail vehicles can travel in multi-car trains carrying a theoretical ridership up to 20,000 passengers per hour in much narrower rights-of-way, not much more than two car lanes wide for a double track system. They can often be run through existing city streets and parks, or placed in the medians of roads. If run in streets, trains are usually limited by city block lengths to about four 180-passenger vehicles (720 passengers). Operating on 2 minute headways using traffic signal progression, a well-designed two-track system can handle up to 30 trains per hour per track, achieving peak rates of over 20,000 passengers per hour in each direction. More advanced systems with separate rights-of-way using moving block signaling can exceed 25,000 passengers per hour per track.

....
A four track urban rail system (local and express) could easily handle Atlanta's commuter needs.
With a maximum capacity of 100,000 passengers per hour, it could theoretically replace the equivalent of 41 lanes of superhighway.

If employers were encouraged to provide a shuttle bus service to the nearest station, when local buses don't connect, the transit situation would be resolved.
And if that wasn't enough - provide wi-fi internet service on the train as well as food service - making better use of the transit time.
/ / /

Oh, and having a world class rail mass transit system might encourage Amazon to locate their new headquarters in Hot 'Lanta.

PAY FOR IT?
Simple -
Instead of public subsidy (with its meddling), let us consider granting mass transit rail a better carrot - zero tax liability. Any company 100% involved in the manufacture, installation, operation or maintenance of electric traction rail mass transit and its employees are tax exempt.

The only way they make a profit is to get routes built and passengers moving. ASAP.
I suspect that we would find a far different result, under those conditions. Frankly, investors seeking tax exempt profits will POUR A FORTUNE into quickly building Atlanta's new rail mass transit system.


ATLANTA MASS TRANSIT & BEDROOM COMMUNITIES
FOUR TRACK RAIL (EXPRESS & LOCAL)
Imagine commuter train service connecting Atlanta to:
Duluth, Lilburn, Stone mountain, Forest Park, Austell, Villa Rica, Temple, Smyrna, Marietta, Dunwoody, Roswell, Kennesaw, Jonesboro, Union City, Gainesville, Canton, Buford, Griffin, Carrollton, and Newnan. . .

With four tracks, trains can also utilize intelligent destination routing, so that express trains can bypass stations that have no passengers to drop off or pick up, improving average speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_s..._United_States
Class 5 : 90 mph (145 km/h)
Class 6 : 110 mph (177 km/h)
Class 7 : 125 mph (201 km/h)


A 30 mile trip from Downtown Marietta to Hartsfield-Jackson airport would take 15 to 25 minutes, instead of 50 minutes by car (plus wasted time for parking, etc, etc).
A 45 mile trip from Temple to the North Avenue Transit station might only take 20 to 30 minutes.


100,000 passengers per hour x $10 per fare = $1,000,000 revenue per hour

(Uber charges roughly $1/mile, so a 30 mile trip from Marietta to Hartsfield-Jackson would cost $30)

[Otakumaster]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Even with free roads the poorest cannot afford to drive. Cars cost thousands and thousands of dollars a year where as walking, biking, and transit commutes are a few hundred.

If you want to help the poor, stop forcing them into car dependent situations where they have to spend money on a car in order to survive.

The problem is that right now millions of people here don't have the option to walk, bike, or take transit to work. So your solution is to toll the poor and middle class as punishment.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

The problem is that right now million of people here don't have the option to walk, bike, or take transit to work. So your solution is to toll the poor and middle class as punishment.

That problem is caused by our car-centric land use and transportation planning.

[Otakumaster]

Originally Posted by cqholt

That problem is caused by our car-centric land use and transportation planning.

Ok. So we should toll the poor and middle class as punishment?

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

Ok. So we should toll the poor and middle class as punishment?

They're already getting punished by being de facto required to buy a car to get anywhere.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

That problem is caused by our car-centric land use and transportation planning.

Many people are not in a physical shape to walk or ride significant distances. We can't design transit policies around a handful of 20 and 30 somethings.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

Many people are not in a physical shape to walk or ride significant distances. We can't design transit policies around a handful of 20 and 30 somethings.

Is that a symptom of our car centric culture and land use?

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

Ok. So we should toll the poor and middle class as punishment?

Taxes spent to subsidize roads can be spent on affordable housing near transit if we fund roads via tolls.

The status quo it punishment enough for the poor where they are forced into spend a large share of their budget to maintain a car and are trapped in a very sedentary & unhealthy lifestyle.

Again, I am still waiting for you to suggest what you think we should do. Complaining about the status quo and other people's suggestions is easy.