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Old 06-01-2018, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,847 posts, read 2,069,614 times
Reputation: 2042

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Excellent post.
First of all Wikipedia is written by opinionated people like us.

Cars traveling 60 mph as close to one another as realistically possible has a throughput of 1,300 cars per hour.

No train on planet earth is moving 18,000 people per hour on one track.


And if it was, it would need to be taken out of service for track repair, etc constantly.


The only profitable rail in the Northeast corridor is looking at a $100 billion cost to replace 100 year old infrastructure.


The trucking industry won't be chipping in like they do for the highways with their annual fees to every state they cross.

An 18 wheeler pays about $115 to cross the George Washington Bridge one time!

All of your suggestions are great for building a brand new town from scratch out in the desert or rural area.

But there's no reason to talk about replacing hundreds of thousands of miles of city street with rail lines.

And rail's efficacy is threatened by so much new stuff like, flying cars and platooning where cars and trucks communicate and arrange themselves in packs to maximize efficiency of the road and time.

Our gridlock is resulting in transit-located development organically by individuals and companies.

Because the freedom to live and travel where you want to is one of America's most coveted rights.

The right-wing nuts think that we're being corralled next to transit to take away our rights like some European socialist country. Google "Agenda 21"

 
Old 06-01-2018, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,734 posts, read 8,896,246 times
Reputation: 5244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yep. And people should certainly should have that option. Not denying that. But every choice comes with pros, cons, costs, and benefits. From a policy perspective if we are going to favor / encourage / subsidize a certain lifestyle it should not be car-dependent suburban sprawl since it is simply not possible to effectively move 90%+ of people around a large city by car.
If we are subsidizing, then we need to subsidize that which the majority of folks want or have. Transit is already subsidized as are roads / cars. All's good!
 
Old 06-01-2018, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,730 posts, read 16,732,445 times
Reputation: 5107
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I'm all for China's rail expansion...

But as has already happened once, the disasters from non-existent safety and quality standards will happen.

We cannot build such big infrastructure projects as cheaply as they do, and decent quality & safety standards add a lot of cost, and of course their laborers are expendible while ours come with so much added overhead costs.


I think other developed countries rail-building efforts should be factored in and then we could see what we reasonably can build.
https://www.citylab.com/transportati...the-us/551408/
 
Old 06-01-2018, 01:53 PM
 
296 posts, read 104,937 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
I don't see mention of London's Crossrail project in that article. It's a nearly-completed (some sections are operating now) subway project that has 73 miles of track from Reading west of London to Shenfield east with a couple spurs to Heathrow and Abbey Wood in South London. The average cost per mile is £202 million. That's mostly tunnel, including a lot of tunneling around the very sandy and difficult Thames wetlands. That cost also includes more than 10 new stations in central London, btw.
 
Old 06-01-2018, 02:34 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
If we are subsidizing, then we need to subsidize that which the majority of folks want or have. Transit is already subsidized as are roads / cars. All's good!
But the majority of folks really want to fly in a private jet everywhere! We need zoning laws that require every home and business to be built with a runway!

Think of how great it would be, everyone can fly right to their destination faster and more direct than either driving around winding roads or transfering via trains!

(In case you are missing the point: just like private cars, private jets are not a practical option to move 90%+ of people around large cities either. Great if people want a big highway, airport in their backyard, or garage in their front yard but it should be up to them to spend their money on it, not society as a whole. Unlike transit which is affordable to the masses and promotes a healthier, more equitable lifestyle.)
 
Old 06-01-2018, 02:42 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand this quote. I've lived in Metro Atlanta my entire life, a pretty large city, and for the entire time I've been alive, every single day, 90%+ of people get around everywhere by car. Effectively. They all successfully reach their destination, and everything.

So when you say "it is simply not possible". I politely point to the evidence and disagree.
The key word is effective. I disagree that Atlanta is effectively moving people around via car. Transportation is the number one concern in most regional polling.

Sure it is possible to get places. Heck, a city the size of Atlanta could have 100% of people walking everywhere. That doesn't mean it is effective.
 
Old 06-01-2018, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,378 posts, read 9,477,109 times
Reputation: 9314
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
No train on planet earth is moving 18,000 people per hour on one track.
Perhaps you misunderstood the statement.

EXCERPT
If run in streets, trains are usually limited by city block lengths to about four 180-passenger vehicles (720 passengers). Operating on 2 minute headways using traffic signal progression, a well-designed two-track system can handle up to 30 trains per hour per track, achieving peak rates of over 20,000 passengers per hour in each direction.
At full capacity, 720 passengers x 30 trains per hour = 21,600 per hour, per track.
.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail
.....
Assuming commuters with 1.2 people per vehicle, and 2000 vehicles per hour maximum per lane, to move 21,600 per hour would take 9 lanes (21,600 / (1.2 x 2000)).

Each rail track has the potential to carry the equivalent of 9 lanes of superhighway.
A four track system (like NYC subway) is equivalent to 36 lanes of superhighway.

A mixed system of commuter rail, surface streetcars, trolley buses, and subway would be more than capable of meeting Atlanta's transit needs far better than building more roads.

A typical modern tram:
https://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...y-2-trams.html
 
Old 06-01-2018, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,378 posts, read 9,477,109 times
Reputation: 9314
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
Cars traveling 60 mph as close to one another as realistically possible has a throughput of 1,300 cars per hour.
1,300 cars x 1 occupant = 1300 passengers per hour per lane

1,300 cars x 2 occupants = 2600 passengers per hour per lane
...
1,300 cars x 5 occupants = 6,500 passengers per hour per lane


A single track, with 20,000+ capacity can outperform 3 lanes of superhighway filled with HOVs.
 
Old 06-01-2018, 05:04 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 7,145,635 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
No train on planet earth is moving 18,000 people per hour on one track.
Sure they do.

The Denen Toshi line in Tokyo moves 80,000 per hour in during rush hour.

The Tsuen Wan Line in Hong Kong moves 75,000 per hour.
 
Old 06-01-2018, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
13,378 posts, read 9,477,109 times
Reputation: 9314
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
But there's no reason to talk about replacing hundreds of thousands of miles of city street with rail lines.
[No one is talking about REPLACING ROADS. The issue is the need for MORE ROADS to deal with growing population and more automobiles. The better solution is to add RAILWAYS to augment the existing roads.]

And rail's efficacy is threatened by so much new stuff like, flying cars and platooning where cars and trucks communicate and arrange themselves in packs to maximize efficiency of the road and time.
[No flying car is more fuel efficient than rail. No arrangement of pneumatic tire on pavement vehicles can beat the inherent advantage of steel wheel on steel rail. And the cost of the automobile infrastructure is still a magnitude greater than for rail.]

Our gridlock is resulting in transit-located development organically by individuals and companies. [No, it's based on simple physics - and the safe capacity of a lane.]

Because the freedom to live and travel where you want to is one of America's most coveted rights. [The right to travel is an endowed right. The means by which one travels is not.]
Bottom line : if all costs were made visible, the most efficient form of land transport would be electric traction rail (steel wheel on steel rail) in all its various forms.
1. Rolling resistance (20:1 advantage)
2. Surface (train cars can move more passengers per unit surface area per unit time)
3. Speed (can exceed 200 mph)
4. Pollution (minimal)
5. Durability (track and rolling stock longevity can exceed half a century and more)
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