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Old 06-03-2018, 03:18 PM
 
10,157 posts, read 7,150,753 times
Reputation: 3137

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bu2 - If you think commuting on Houston's highways is so great it sounds like you need to move there. I was born there and have no interest in going back based on the times I have been through there.

Houston is not known for their free flowing traffic and certainly not what Atlanta should aspire to replicate.

 
Old 06-03-2018, 04:02 PM
bu2
 
9,301 posts, read 5,955,216 times
Reputation: 3729
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
bu2 - If you think commuting on Houston's highways is so great it sounds like you need to move there. I was born there and have no interest in going back based on the times I have been through there.

Houston is not known for their free flowing traffic and certainly not what Atlanta should aspire to replicate.
Its not known for free flowing traffic. And the mosquitos are bad too. That's why I was shocked when Atlanta's traffic was worse and its mosquitos were just as bad!

Now what the Texas cities (Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio) and the North Carolina cities (Charlotte, Raleigh, Greensboro) are and have been doing, is addressing the problem. Atlanta has finally woken up after a quarter century slumber while the population was growing like crazy.
 
Old 06-03-2018, 04:17 PM
 
1,278 posts, read 551,865 times
Reputation: 1069
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
Correction:
Atlanta is the least dense major city (population greater than 5 million ) ever.
Isn't that basically what I just said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
And that is certainly a part of the transportation problem. It requires a high percentage of the population to use a car for everything and renders mass transit ineffective.
Transit was never brought out to the areas that need it thus making it ineffective and virtually useless for many residents in the metro.

HOWEVER...

That is not an excuse to completely neglect the road network. Atlanta's streets are ALSO very inefficient by design in so many ways its incomprehensible and its because the metro is made up of so many communities that have little correlation with each other that slap on a big name tag called "Atlanta". There are countless roads that funnel through several suburban communities of which are overloaded with intersections and cross streets between job and residential sectors. There are no major east / west thoroughfares in the North (or even south) side of town, forcing drivers onto overloaded streets, or I-285.

There are no substitutes for an efficient road network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
I have not mentioned an Asian city or any specific city at all for that matter. But I will point out that there is a vast array of potential possibilities that this city and region can plan for between its current status and the complete opposite end of spectrum that exists in places such as Tokyo. To say that we don't want density because we don't want to be like the largest metro on the planet is a straw man.

I'm not sure what you mean here but it seems very contradictory.

It all really comes down to one simple thing that has been beaten into America over and over again.

Chicago learned it.
New York learned it.
San Francisco and Los Angeles know it.

A massive movement toward transit will not be enough to handle the needs of commuters... It isn't to say this movement isn't NEEDED. It is... but overly favoring it while neglecting a road network will do little good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
bu2 - If you think commuting on Houston's highways is so great it sounds like you need to move there. I was born there and have no interest in going back based on the times I have been through there.

Houston is not known for their free flowing traffic and certainly not what Atlanta should aspire to replicate.
I actually now live in Austin TX now and have had to go to Houston about 4 times to this date within the last month. Houston is definitely no joke when it comes to traffic, I cannot call its traffic great, HOWEVER; I can say...its a heck of alot easier getting around Houston than it is Atlanta. I don't HAVE to drive to the core of the city to reach anywhere else in Houston, I'm given the option of 3 different bypasses, 2 of which seldomly are ever congested, before I reach the city. Also I do not know when the last time you've been to Houston is, but from what I have heard about Houston's past and current Houston...the freeway projects have greatly improved traffic and capacity to handle it.

After driving on some of Texas freeways there's almost no way I could go back and deal with Atlanta's traffic...they are just light years behind in the planning of infrastructure.
 
Old 06-03-2018, 06:32 PM
bu2
 
9,301 posts, read 5,955,216 times
Reputation: 3729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Isn't that basically what I just said?



Transit was never brought out to the areas that need it thus making it ineffective and virtually useless for many residents in the metro.

HOWEVER...

That is not an excuse to completely neglect the road network. Atlanta's streets are ALSO very inefficient by design in so many ways its incomprehensible and its because the metro is made up of so many communities that have little correlation with each other that slap on a big name tag called "Atlanta". There are countless roads that funnel through several suburban communities of which are overloaded with intersections and cross streets between job and residential sectors. There are no major east / west thoroughfares in the North (or even south) side of town, forcing drivers onto overloaded streets, or I-285.

There are no substitutes for an efficient road network.




It all really comes down to one simple thing that has been beaten into America over and over again.

Chicago learned it.
New York learned it.
San Francisco and Los Angeles know it.

A massive movement toward transit will not be enough to handle the needs of commuters... It isn't to say this movement isn't NEEDED. It is... but overly favoring it while neglecting a road network will do little good.



I actually now live in Austin TX now and have had to go to Houston about 4 times to this date within the last month. Houston is definitely no joke when it comes to traffic, I cannot call its traffic great, HOWEVER; I can say...its a heck of alot easier getting around Houston than it is Atlanta. I don't HAVE to drive to the core of the city to reach anywhere else in Houston, I'm given the option of 3 different bypasses, 2 of which seldomly are ever congested, before I reach the city. Also I do not know when the last time you've been to Houston is, but from what I have heard about Houston's past and current Houston...the freeway projects have greatly improved traffic and capacity to handle it.

After driving on some of Texas freeways there's almost no way I could go back and deal with Atlanta's traffic...they are just light years behind in the planning of infrastructure.
All of Houston's improvements have actually made traffic inside Beltway 8 better than it was in the early 80s. Outside, of course, its much worse with all the growth. But road and freeway improvements CAN make a difference. Metro Atlanta needs to spend on both transit and roads, not just one or the other.
 
Old 06-03-2018, 08:06 PM
 
311 posts, read 111,386 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Metro Atlanta needs to spend on both transit and roads, not just one or the other.
Jesus, thank you, can we just agree on this part and move forward? Everyone is arguing extremes.
 
Old 06-03-2018, 08:22 PM
 
10,157 posts, read 7,150,753 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
Jesus, thank you, can we just agree on this part and move forward? Everyone is arguing extremes.
Both roads and transit need continued investment, yes, we all likely can agree on that.

But, how much invest each gets and how it is funded is where the debate comes in. And honestly, in many cases our infratruture has been over-expanded to an unsustainable level: https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/
 
Old 06-03-2018, 11:46 PM
 
4,544 posts, read 2,998,247 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
Correction:
Atlanta is the least dense major city (population greater than 5 million ) ever.
You sure? At least according to Wikipedia...

Atlanta Metro: 691 / sq mi.
Atlanta City: 3650 / sq mi.
Houston Metro: 627 / sq mi. (less than Atlanta)
Houston City: 3348 / sq mi (less than Atlanta)
Dallas/Ft. Worth Metro: 692 / sq mi. (equal to Atlanta)
Dallas City: 3517 / sq mi. (less than Atlanta)
Moscow, Russia: 382 / sq mi.

Ever?
 
Old 06-04-2018, 06:44 AM
 
1,410 posts, read 1,605,869 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
You sure? At least according to Wikipedia...

Atlanta Metro: 691 / sq mi.
Atlanta City: 3650 / sq mi.
Houston Metro: 627 / sq mi. (less than Atlanta)
Houston City: 3348 / sq mi (less than Atlanta)
Dallas/Ft. Worth Metro: 692 / sq mi. (equal to Atlanta)
Dallas City: 3517 / sq mi. (less than Atlanta)
Moscow, Russia: 382 / sq mi.

Ever?
You're right. The correct statistic is that Atlanta is the least dense urban area ever (population greater than 4 million). And LOL that Moscow is less dense than Atlanta.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas

Last edited by J2rescue; 06-04-2018 at 06:59 AM..
 
Old 06-04-2018, 08:17 AM
 
1,410 posts, read 1,605,869 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Isn't that basically what I just said?
I am making the point that Atlanta is not just "one of" the least dense cities in the US. Its an important distinction in order to understand that we are not average density but rather on the far extreme end of the density spectrum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Transit was never brought out to the areas that need it thus making it ineffective and virtually useless for many residents in the metro.

HOWEVER...

That is not an excuse to completely neglect the road network. Atlanta's streets are ALSO very inefficient by design in so many ways its incomprehensible and its because the metro is made up of so many communities that have little correlation with each other that slap on a big name tag called "Atlanta". There are countless roads that funnel through several suburban communities of which are overloaded with intersections and cross streets between job and residential sectors. There are no major east / west thoroughfares in the North (or even south) side of town, forcing drivers onto overloaded streets, or I-285.

There are no substitutes for an efficient road network.

It all really comes down to one simple thing that has been beaten into America over and over again.

Chicago learned it.
New York learned it.
San Francisco and Los Angeles know it.

A massive movement toward transit will not be enough to handle the needs of commuters... It isn't to say this movement isn't NEEDED. It is... but overly favoring it while neglecting a road network will do little good.

Spreading transit across longer distances to low density areas will not make it more effective. I fully support making transit available to more people but that is not synonymous with making it more effective.

The DOT is currently in the midst of several projects that cost nearly $1 billion in the metro area. One might disagree with their methods as I do. But that is not the same thing as completely neglecting the road network.


 
Old 06-04-2018, 08:33 AM
bu2
 
9,301 posts, read 5,955,216 times
Reputation: 3729
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
You're right. The correct statistic is that Atlanta is the least dense urban area ever (population greater than 4 million). And LOL that Moscow is less dense than Atlanta.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_urban_areas
To expand on that:
Atlanta is the least dense of the top 37 urban areas. Only Charlotte is less dense among the top 50. Before #38 Charlotte, Pittsburg is the only area within 20% of Atlanta's density. Poster children for sprawl-Dallas, Houston and Phoenix, are 69%, 75% and 85% MORE dense than Atlanta.
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