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Old 06-15-2018, 08:04 AM
 
1,404 posts, read 1,603,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Needs better legends. Page 5 doesn't make it clear whether that is density they want or what exists now. Page 6 on their goals is also not very clear on where their data comes from. Nice to have goals, but it looks absurd. Maybe its not, but they don't explain enough to understand.

Safety stuff on pages 13 & 14 is nice. But there is nothing about TSM improvements of the type Architect77 mentions. They simply seem to have the goal to make driving more expensive and difficult with their TDM, parking price controls and "Cordon pricing" which they don't explain.

Their relative cost page is nonsense. $800 for transit vs. $10,000 for a car? MARTA pass is $95. 12X95 is $1,140. And that doesn't count the subsidy of operations or the capital costs. Makes you question any other data they have when they either don't have that right or do some adjustment they don't explain.

It's a presentation given to summarize the city's current plans regarding mobility and placemaking. It is not intended to be an exhaustive data dump but if you're interested some of the supporting data, here you go. Facts & Data.

By the way $1,140 < $10,000

And as much as I enjoy learning about NC highway development, I'm not quite sure how relevant it is to this city's plans to become less reliant on car travel.

 
Old 06-15-2018, 10:04 AM
bu2
 
9,260 posts, read 5,934,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
"Cordon pricing" is "congestion pricing". And unfortunately it is really the only way to keep traffic flowing in large cities. There is no other functional long-term solution to traffic. You can offer people alternatives via transit (which we should do) or improve things in the short term but make the problem worse in the long run with wider lanes (which we don't have to space left to do this on a significant scale even if we wanted to), but in a growing city congestion pricing is the only real way to manage traffic.
Are they planning to charge more on HOT lanes? Or are they going to make all lanes effectively HOT lanes during peak hours? None of that is explained. If its all, it has the same chance as the leader of the KKK being elected mayor of Atlanta in the next election. The state would never allow it.
 
Old 06-15-2018, 02:40 PM
 
10,140 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Are they planning to charge more on HOT lanes? Or are they going to make all lanes effectively HOT lanes during peak hours? None of that is explained. If its all, it has the same chance as the leader of the KKK being elected mayor of Atlanta in the next election. The state would never allow it.
Well the city has basically zero control over the interstates, so I would not overthink it happening too soon there just because the city supports it. Something similar to London's Congestion Charge is more likely to happen under CoA control. Basically you just have cameras capturing license plates on surface streets in the designated area and validating the fee has been paid and mailing a fine if not.


Last edited by jsvh; 06-15-2018 at 02:49 PM..
 
Old 06-15-2018, 03:44 PM
 
1,252 posts, read 543,604 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Well the city has basically zero control over the interstates, so I would not overthink it happening too soon there just because the city supports it. Something similar to [removed image] is more likely to happen under CoA control. Basically you just have cameras capturing license plates on surface streets in the designated area and validating the fee has been paid and mailing a fine if not.
Possibly... but I think thats jumping the gun a bit ...atleast maybe for now... On top of an absolute serious coordination it would take to install them (on top of an all out rebellion against them) I truly don't believe Atlanta or Georgia has planned ahead enough for them. Especially until they bring a strong transportation system out into the suburbs. Punishing people for driving into Downtown while providing them no additional means just will not fly.

I found this: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/congestionp...ts/atlanta.htm

Interestingly enough it seems as though they consider HOT lanes apart of a "Cordon system" -- i wouldn't be surprised to see more of them as the framework for them is already in place... but congestion charging the downtown area would be alittle more than Atlanta can chew right now.

Another big issue is -- It may very well cause job centers to relocate outside of the downtown district. For example, in London, they have strict political enforcement over where businesses can biuld and they have VERY stringent control over sprawl (there is a 20km green belt around the city center to stop sprawl.) Atlanta doesn't have this at all, infact it has the opposite... Edge cities who would eagerly swollow up the businesses Atlanta may possibly lose... and it could happen easier than one may think. Most people commute from the suburbs / exhurbs. Doing something like this to keep them from driving downtown will force employers to relocate closer to where employees can reach them, thus making their commutes easier overall.
 
Old 06-15-2018, 03:50 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,424 times
Reputation: 405
I feel like we are going around in circles.

There isn't going to be any significant push for congestion tolling here without more alternatives already in place for people to use ( commuter rail, better rail coverage, more east to west connections, etc) and rightfully so.
 
Old 06-15-2018, 04:55 PM
 
10,140 posts, read 7,137,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Another big issue is -- It may very well cause job centers to relocate outside of the downtown district. For example, in London, they have strict political enforcement over where businesses can biuld and they have VERY stringent control over sprawl (there is a 20km green belt around the city center to stop sprawl.) Atlanta doesn't have this at all, infact it has the opposite... Edge cities who would eagerly swollow up the businesses Atlanta may possibly lose... and it could happen easier than one may think. Most people commute from the suburbs / exhurbs. Doing something like this to keep them from driving downtown will force employers to relocate closer to where employees can reach them, thus making their commutes easier overall.
Your "big issue" makes it sounds like it is a win-win either way a congestion zone works out.

I think just like other cities a congestion zone will have a net-positive impact on businesses and jobs in the area, but if not it sounds like you are saying traffic will get better anyways.

It is not going to happen tomorrow, but congestion tolling / cordon system is the only way to improve traffic in the long run.

Sure, we need to improve alternative transit options as well. But it does not depend on that. You still get benefits even if you have no transit as it will cause people to modify their habits and take unnecessary car trips at off-peak times.
 
Old 06-15-2018, 05:01 PM
 
10,140 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
I feel like we are going around in circles.

There isn't going to be any significant push for congestion tolling here without more alternatives already in place for people to use ( commuter rail, better rail coverage, more east to west connections, etc) and rightfully so.
As noted above, no transit alternatives are needed to see benefits of congestion tolling. But even still, we have the best transit system in the south east recently funded it's largest expansion in history (More MARTA), added a new county with commuter rail in the works (Clayton), and the state recently approved a new massive regional transit effort (The ATL).

Too many things people claim we cannot do until we have better transit. They are wrong. There is no reasonable level of transit that will satisfy their requests.

Things like Floridia's private Brightline Rail would not be viable if the alternative was not $20 in tolls. Drivers need to face real financial choices if transit is going to have a level playing field.
 
Old 06-15-2018, 07:50 PM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Things like Floridia's private Brightline Rail would not be viable if the alternative was not $20 in tolls. Drivers need to face real financial choices if transit is going to have a level playing field.
Spending $6-10,000 a year isn't enough?

What I'm hearing you say is "transit isn't viable on its own, so we must make people need to use it".
 
Old 06-15-2018, 11:05 PM
 
1,404 posts, read 1,603,855 times
Reputation: 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Well the city has basically zero control over the interstates, so I would not overthink it happening too soon there just because the city supports it. Something similar to London's Congestion Charge is more likely to happen under CoA control. Basically you just have cameras capturing license plates on surface streets in the designated area and validating the fee has been paid and mailing a fine if not.
The Miami section of the Florida Turnpike is a similar to this. There is no toll plaza. They just send you the a bill.
 
Old 06-16-2018, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,843 posts, read 2,066,718 times
Reputation: 2041
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Just to clarify, you are talking about the same state government that passed a bathroom bill?
The first republican legislature in 50 or a 100 years doesn’t erase or necessarily preclude a well-run state with high standards.

The inability to understand transgender people is all about small-town mentality which permeates every sq. inch of NC unfortunately.

To the poster complaining about NC-related info....

Georgia needs to start looking at how other states do things if it’s to ever shed the primitive look & feel of everything state-related.

If they ever start congestion tolling and our 3rd-world secondary streets are still as-is, I pack up and leave for good.

A city cannot be run worse than here.
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