U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-16-2018, 09:06 PM
 
10,154 posts, read 7,148,069 times
Reputation: 3137

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
What are the financial consequences that train riders have to deal with?
Usually less than car owners. For example Atlanta's private streetcar's charged a dime (inflation adjusted to ~$1.50) Brightline tickets start at $10. But everyone's situation is different. That is why people have choices (and needing to pay the costs of their choices) is so important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
Also, only a handful of extremist think we have enough transit alternatives to charge congestion tolling and thankfully they aren’t in charge of of these decisions.
If you want to direct subsidies towards transit I am certainly supportive as it is far more deserving of subsidies than what highways are getting. But transit never comes first. Transit only becomes viable once the other alternatives are not able to cut it. Do you consider the planners behind the Florida Turnpike transit extremists? The Brightline wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye until decades after they started collecting tolls. We already have MARTA heavy rail into the city from every cardinal direction, congestion tolling is still years away from being implemented here but it does not need to wait for more transit to be built.

 
Old 06-16-2018, 10:00 PM
 
28,551 posts, read 25,300,721 times
Reputation: 9835
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
If you want to direct subsidies towards transit I am certainly supportive as it is far more deserving of subsidies than what highways are getting. But transit never comes first. Transit only becomes viable once the other alternatives are not able to cut it. Do you consider the planners behind the Florida Turnpike transit extremists? The Brightline wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye until decades after they started collecting tolls. We already have MARTA heavy rail into the city from every cardinal direction, congestion tolling is still years away from being implemented here but it does not need to wait for more transit to be built.
I keep thinking maybe we should ask the Chinese to look into this situation. They can flat build a rail line.
 
Old 06-17-2018, 12:15 AM
 
4,542 posts, read 2,995,920 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
If you want to direct subsidies towards transit I am certainly supportive as it is far more deserving of subsidies than what highways are getting.
As I pointed out in a previous post with a source, GDOT is appears to be almost 90% funded by fuel taxes. Doesn't seem like much subsidy is going that way. Since you never responded to that, I have to assume you believe that to be true. MARTA is far more heavily subsidized, with as little as 30% and likely closer to 15-20% of their operational costs alone being paid for by users. Capital costs are not paid by users at all. That is all subsidy. All in all, probably only a single-digit percent of MARTA's total costs are user-funded. That's okay, but at least be honest about it.

[quote]Do you consider the planners behind the Florida Turnpike transit extremists?[/quoite]

I wouldn't, because you can get between locations on different, non-toll highways. The turnpike is an added option which is a little bit quicker, but it's not the only viable way. If you charge for all of Atlanta's highways, you are taking the only viable way for most people and putting a hefty charge on it. Apples and Oranges comparison.

Quote:
The Brightline wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye until decades after they started collecting tolls. We already have MARTA heavy rail into the city from every cardinal direction, congestion tolling is still years away from being implemented here but it does not need to wait for more transit to be built.
Not everyone lives or works in the core city, and to get other locations can take excessively long times. That is the problem.

Where do you envision the congestion charge being enforced? I assume this congestion charge would then go towards transit funding?

You say it's "years away" as if there's an actual plan. Hate to tell you...you will likely never see this happen here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
I keep thinking maybe we should ask the Chinese to look into this situation. They can flat build a rail line.
True. And if we can get people to work for just a couple-thousand dollars a year to build it, we probably could, too.
 
Old 06-17-2018, 12:59 PM
 
28,551 posts, read 25,300,721 times
Reputation: 9835
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
True. And if we can get people to work for just a couple-thousand dollars a year to build it, we probably could, too.
Well, the Chinese are building rail like gangbusters for everybody else in the world, including countries much poorer than the U.S. Why shouldn't we jump on the bandwagon?
 
Old 06-17-2018, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,851 posts, read 2,071,369 times
Reputation: 2046
This is interesting.

9 miles of I-66 inside the Washington Beltway charge solo drivers up to $40 in the morning to strongly encourage carpooling.


Slugging hasn't caught on and seems to be contained to I-95.


Even at $40 per trip with 2/3 in some sort of carpooling the speed is falling too low.



Sounds like more capacity is needed or rail transit very close by is warranted:


https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/06/...ke-up-earlier/
 
Old 06-17-2018, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,851 posts, read 2,071,369 times
Reputation: 2046
[quote=samiwas1;52219772]As I pointed out in a previous post with a source, GDOT is appears to be almost 90% funded by fuel taxes. Doesn't seem like much subsidy is going that way. Since you never responded to that, I have to assume you believe that to be true. MARTA is far more heavily subsidized, with as little as 30% and likely closer to 15-20% of their operational costs alone being paid for by users. Capital costs are not paid by users at all. That is all subsidy. All in all, probably only a single-digit percent of MARTA's total costs are user-funded. That's okay, but at least be honest about it.

Quote:
Do you consider the planners behind the Florida Turnpike transit extremists?[/quoite]

I wouldn't, because you can get between locations on different, non-toll highways. The turnpike is an added option which is a little bit quicker, but it's not the only viable way. If you charge for all of Atlanta's highways, you are taking the only viable way for most people and putting a hefty charge on it. Apples and Oranges comparison.



Not everyone lives or works in the core city, and to get other locations can take excessively long times. That is the proble

Where do you envision the congestion charge being enforced? I assume this congestion charge would then go towards transit funding?

You say it's "years away" as if there's an actual plan. Hate to tell you...you will likely never see this happen here.



True. And if we can get people to work for just a couple-thousand dollars a year to build it, we probably could, too.
So if MARTA averages 225,000 daily riders at $2.50 per ride, that brings in $562,500 per day in revenue x 365 days is $205,312,500 per year.

So you're saying that's around 10% of the operating costs? I didn't realize that MARTA cost billions every year to operate.

Was the sales tax providing all of that funding before the state recently agreed to chip in?
 
Old 06-17-2018, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,747 posts, read 16,738,484 times
Reputation: 5120
[quote=architect77;52223456]
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
As I pointed out in a previous post with a source, GDOT is appears to be almost 90% funded by fuel taxes. Doesn't seem like much subsidy is going that way. Since you never responded to that, I have to assume you believe that to be true. MARTA is far more heavily subsidized, with as little as 30% and likely closer to 15-20% of their operational costs alone being paid for by users. Capital costs are not paid by users at all. That is all subsidy. All in all, probably only a single-digit percent of MARTA's total costs are user-funded. That's okay, but at least be honest about it.



So if MARTA averages 225,000 daily riders at $2.50 per ride, that brings in $562,500 per day in revenue x 365 days is $205,312,500 per year.

So you're saying that's around 10% of the operating costs? I didn't realize that MARTA cost billions every year to operate.

Was the sales tax providing all of that funding before the state recently agreed to chip in?
State of Georgia has never agreed to fund MARTA. It still gets $0 yearly funds from the state.
 
Old 06-17-2018, 02:22 PM
 
10,154 posts, read 7,148,069 times
Reputation: 3137
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
I wouldn't, because you can get between locations on different, non-toll highways. The turnpike is an added option which is a little bit quicker, but it's not the only viable way. If you charge for all of Atlanta's highways, you are taking the only viable way for most people and putting a hefty charge on it. Apples and Oranges comparison.
No. People can get around without highways. It is just slower. A highway is not a "need" it is a "want".
 
Old 06-17-2018, 03:08 PM
 
28,551 posts, read 25,300,721 times
Reputation: 9835
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
No. People can get around without highways. It is just slower. A highway is not a "need" it is a "want".
I tend to agree, at least to the extent that you are talking about the highly urbanized areas. In general surface roads are fine.

However, there's definitely a need for highways in the more suburban areas. We also need them for truck transport and for longer distance travel.
 
Old 06-17-2018, 06:07 PM
 
4,542 posts, read 2,995,920 times
Reputation: 2954
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
So if MARTA averages 225,000 daily riders at $2.50 per ride, that brings in $562,500 per day in revenue x 365 days is $205,312,500 per year.

So you're saying that's around 10% of the operating costs? I didn't realize that MARTA cost billions every year to operate.
I've looked at several sources, including MARTA's own budget presentations. This is a document from 2015. Check page 22. Keep in mind that ridership has gone down since, so passenger revenue is likely lower.

According to this document, total operating expenditures were $945 million after offsetting some costs. Passenger revenue is listed as $138 million. That puts passenger revenue as 14.6% of operating expenses. Add in capital costs, it becomes much lower.

Found the 2018 version. Page 19. Lists total operating costs as $956 million after cost offset. Passenger revenue is $135 million. That's 14.1%.

If you want to argue against MARTA's own budgetary documents, I'm willing to hear those arguments. But, it seems pretty well proven that passenger revenue accounts for less than 15% of MARTA's operational costs, and single-digit percentage of total costs. Sales taxes (from largely non-users) pulls in 2.5 times more revenue. Riders are getting a massive steal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
No. People can get around without highways. It is just slower. A highway is not a "need" it is a "want".
Transit is not a need. It is a want.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top