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Old 06-25-2018, 08:44 AM
bu2
 
9,261 posts, read 5,934,125 times
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Actually using your link JSVH, it shows the absolute subsidy for transit is higher too.
58.7 billion with a 78% subsidy-$45.8 billion subsidy for mass transit.
150.3 billion-77.1 billion-28 billion=$45.2 billion subsidy for roads.

 
Old 06-25-2018, 08:46 AM
bu2
 
9,261 posts, read 5,934,125 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
Bike lanes are being expanded, the More Marta tax passed to expand transit, and as a part of the next phase of the city's zoning overhaul minimum parking requirements will change drastically. It is happening anyway whether you "see it" or not.

I don't know if you've noticed but the city is growing faster than most of the counties in the region and is planning to double (at least) in population. Under those circumstances the ONLY option is to plan like a city and not a car-oriented suburb.
The northern counties are all growing faster than the city. Its the southern counties that are growing slower.
Atlanta is "planning" on what happens if the population doubles. They aren't "expecting" it to double.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 08:54 AM
 
1,255 posts, read 544,568 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
Bike lanes are being expanded, the More Marta tax passed to expand transit, and as a part of the next phase of the city's zoning overhaul minimum parking requirements will change drastically. It is happening anyway whether you "see it" or not.

I don't know if you've noticed but the city is growing faster than most of the counties in the region and is planning to double (at least) in population. Under those circumstances the ONLY option is to plan like a city and not a car-oriented suburb.
Noting that these kind of changes are really only expected to be seen ITP where as like most major cities where they are already implemented are largely successful only in dense areas... the suburbs will still continue to have their woes.

Also currently in the metro, the fastest growing county is Gwinnett (which currently has nearly double that of Atlanta city limits population), not Fulton or especially Dekalb.

Atlanta is growing, but it is far from outpacing the suburbs:
https://www.ajc.com/news/local/these...rVGFbb4ppR6II/

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 06-25-2018 at 09:04 AM..
 
Old 06-25-2018, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,729 posts, read 8,886,611 times
Reputation: 5241
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Actually using your link JSVH, it shows the absolute subsidy for transit is higher too.
58.7 billion with a 78% subsidy-$45.8 billion subsidy for mass transit.
150.3 billion-77.1 billion-28 billion=$45.2 billion subsidy for roads.
Is this just for metro Atlanta or for the entire state?
 
Old 06-25-2018, 12:37 PM
bu2
 
9,261 posts, read 5,934,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
Is this just for metro Atlanta or for the entire state?
That's the national figures in JSVH's link.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,729 posts, read 8,886,611 times
Reputation: 5241
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
That's the national figures in JSVH's link.
Thanks! I was wondering!!!! Guess I should learn to read...
 
Old 06-25-2018, 02:01 PM
 
4,504 posts, read 2,983,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
We have been through this argument a hundred time.

Transit will not only survive but thrive on a level playing field where everybody has to directly pay the full costs of their transportation choices.

I am fine scrapping subsidies and directly paying for transit IF results in the same for roads.

Drivers, you need to get used to picking up a lot more of the costs of the expensive road network you are using. At least much, much higher gas taxes but more likely needs to be electronic tolling on major highways & roads.

I can understand the argument for keeping some subsidy for transit since it is more accessible, equitable, safer, efficient, leads to better urban design, and more environmentally friendly. But either way, we need to keep ratcheting down subsidies for automobiles. That is not a behavior we need to encourage.
You refuse to answer to my GDOT sources showing a nearly 90% funding source from fuel taxes. Those are directly paid by drivers. You keep pulling this Tax foundation link from many years ago before Georgia raised the gas tax some 60%. So, those taxes have already been raised! Maybe federal can stick on a little more.

Until you acknowledge or admit that, I assume you are either incapable of comprehension or are trolling. Which is it?

I have also shown that in order to cover actual costs, a MARTA ticket would need to be about $16.00 on average. You think that would create a “level playing field”? If transit is matches dollar for dollar, you’re looking at about a 10:1 per-user ratio funding for transit. And that’s a “level playing field”?
 
Old 06-25-2018, 02:38 PM
 
2,128 posts, read 495,432 times
Reputation: 2383
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
You refuse to answer to my GDOT sources showing a nearly 90% funding source from fuel taxes. Those are directly paid by drivers. You keep pulling this Tax foundation link from many years ago before Georgia raised the gas tax some 60%. So, those taxes have already been raised! Maybe federal can stick on a little more.

Until you acknowledge or admit that, I assume you are either incapable of comprehension or are trolling. Which is it?

I have also shown that in order to cover actual costs, a MARTA ticket would need to be about $16.00 on average. You think that would create a “level playing field”? If transit is matches dollar for dollar, you’re looking at about a 10:1 per-user ratio funding for transit. And that’s a “level playing field”?
To the town criers demanding MARTA expansion, know this: The money must come from somewhere, and if ATL is laying out capex to build out the lines, they want to make sure those buses will be FULL. I think we're past the days of throwing good money after bad, where we dump XXX million into public transit, only to have to commit XX million per year to maintain it, whether or not revenue EVER makes the entity fully solvent, much less gives the city any ROI.

I believe city taxes allocated for new public transport lines, highways, and other resident-participation services are well spent when getting the projects off the ground, BUT should include a plan of solvency for eventually becoming self sustaining. Whether that's 10 or 20 years to goal would be voted on.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 05:13 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Actually using your link JSVH, it shows the absolute subsidy for transit is higher too.
58.7 billion with a 78% subsidy-$45.8 billion subsidy for mass transit.
150.3 billion-77.1 billion-28 billion=$45.2 billion subsidy for roads.
How many ways did you try to calculate this before you got the number you liked?

At best, do and apples to apples with their numbers: 150.3 billion * 49.6% subsidy = $74.5B subsidy for roads.

Seriously, though: if you believe in your mind that roads and highways are more competitive than transit, why are you fighting so hard against a level playing field and eliminating subsidies for roads and highways?

I can understand the argument on the other side that say transit deserves subsidies because it is more accessible, equitable, safer, efficient, leads to better urban design, and more environmentally friendly. But eliminating subsidies for sprawl should be something we all can agree on even if you think roads are 90% paid by direct users fees, that remaining 10% of however many billions a year is still unacceptable.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 05:50 PM
 
28,529 posts, read 25,273,505 times
Reputation: 9825
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
How many ways did you try to calculate this before you got the number you liked?

At best, do and apples to apples with their numbers: 150.3 billion * 49.6% subsidy = $74.5B subsidy for roads.

Seriously, though: if you believe in your mind that roads and highways are more competitive than transit, why are you fighting so hard against a level playing field and eliminating subsidies for roads and highways?

I can understand the argument on the other side that say transit deserves subsidies because it is more accessible, equitable, safer, efficient, leads to better urban design, and more environmentally friendly. But eliminating subsidies for sprawl should be something we all can agree on even if you think roads are 90% paid by direct users fees, that remaining 10% of however many billions a year is still unacceptable.
There are a ton of differences between roads and public transit. One of the most obvious is that roads serve a gazillion times more locations, including long distance travel. Plus they allow people to come and go on their own schedule, change plans, make detours and interim stops, pick up passengers, haul cargo, travel door to door, etc., etc. In addition to cars, roads carry a tremendous amount of public transit, pedestrians and cyclists. They're also used for moving cargo, providing emergency services, and a host of other things public transit could never do.
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