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Old 06-25-2018, 06:17 PM
 
10,157 posts, read 7,153,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
There are a ton of differences between roads and public transit. One of the most obvious is that roads serve a gazillion times more locations, including long distance travel. Plus they allow people to come and go on their own schedule, change plans, make detours and interim stops, pick up passengers, haul cargo, travel door to door, etc., etc. In addition to cars, roads carry a tremendous amount of public transit, pedestrians and cyclists. They're also used for moving cargo, providing emergency services, and a host of other things public transit could never do.
I am not saying we need to get rid of roads. Just fix how we fund them and level the playing field.

Roads that are truly shared between modes (where you can walk / bike / etc down the middle of the street) are a great thing and are easiest to fund from sources like property taxes. Unfortunately, there are not enough of those types of roads. Even our sidewalks are the responsibility of individual property owners and local municipalities rarely pick up the costs. Meanwhile roads are limited only to cars and get the majority of funding.

Heck, truly multi modal roads can be all dirt trails that don't need any subsidy. Even 2,000 year old stone Roman roads are still around with basically no maintenance costs. The problem & costs comes with the cars.

Last edited by jsvh; 06-25-2018 at 06:27 PM..

 
Old 06-25-2018, 06:33 PM
bu2
 
9,303 posts, read 5,958,368 times
Reputation: 3729
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
How many ways did you try to calculate this before you got the number you liked?

At best, do and apples to apples with their numbers: 150.3 billion * 49.6% subsidy = $74.5B subsidy for roads.

Seriously, though: if you believe in your mind that roads and highways are more competitive than transit, why are you fighting so hard against a level playing field and eliminating subsidies for roads and highways?

I can understand the argument on the other side that say transit deserves subsidies because it is more accessible, equitable, safer, efficient, leads to better urban design, and more environmentally friendly. But eliminating subsidies for sprawl should be something we all can agree on even if you think roads are 90% paid by direct users fees, that remaining 10% of however many billions a year is still unacceptable.
Explain to me what federal user fees transit has?

Excluding federal gas taxes from the user fees for roads is quite frankly misleading and dishonest. That discredited your source when they did that.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 07:23 PM
 
10,157 posts, read 7,153,092 times
Reputation: 3137
Have another source you want to point to that shows transit getting more dollar-to-dollar subsidies than cars?
 
Old 06-25-2018, 08:31 PM
Status: "♪ "Everything is awesome..." ♪" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Prepperland
13,389 posts, read 9,485,995 times
Reputation: 9321
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
There are a ton of differences between roads and public transit. . .
BUT if you strip away all subsidies, and examine the PHYSICS, it becomes evident that the automobile / petroleum / pavement paradigm is VERY VERY EXPENSIVE.
The "freedom" of the automobile, costs us a fortune, 20 times as much fuel, far more surface area, and kills thousands each year in the USA.

There were 1.25 million road traffic deaths globally in 2013.
If cars had to be approved like pharmaceuticals, based on their safety record, they'd never make it to the market.
. . .
Consider the fact that railroad passenger deaths per year, worldwide, is a tiny fraction of that which we accept for the convenience of the automobile.

Railway safety statistics - Statistics Explained
EU: Train passengers killed per billion passenger-kilometres, 2015-2016 (0.10 passengers killed per billion passenger-kilometres).
... 964 deaths occurred in 2016 due to railroad accidents.
Only a minority (8 %) of rail accident victims in the EU-28 were actually passengers travelling on trains or railway employees. The majority, the remaining 92 %, was constituted of ‘other persons’ (e.g.: level-crossing users or unauthorised persons on railway premises).
. . .
. . .
Here's a simple minimal subsidy - convert all private rail rights of way to a tax exempt non-governmental organization (NGO) delegated with the mission to install and maintain a rail network - and nothing more. Charge a fee for common carriers or private vehicles to access the electrified rails. No other taxpayer subsidy. No government meddling. No politics. Just maximize the movement of passengers and cargo from point A to point B.
. . .
 
Old 06-25-2018, 08:43 PM
 
4,544 posts, read 3,000,499 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Seriously, though: if you believe in your mind that roads and highways are more competitive than transit, why are you fighting so hard against a level playing field and eliminating subsidies for roads and highways?
Wait...now you're saying that eliminating subsidies for roads and keeping them for transit is "leveling the playing field"? This doesn't even make sense any more. This is getting into fantasy territory.

Quote:
I can understand the argument on the other side that say transit deserves subsidies because it is more accessible, equitable, safer, efficient, leads to better urban design, and more environmentally friendly. But eliminating subsidies for sprawl should be something we all can agree on even if you think roads are 90% paid by direct users fees, that remaining 10% of however many billions a year is still unacceptable.
GDOT has a total budget of about $2 billion. That means that the alternate funding would be about $200 million. Most of the budget is spent on capital projects. How is $200 million "unacceptable", when MARTA, who moves a small fraction of people, is receiving at least that much in subsidy?

But, also remember that GDOT's funding is for the entire state. MARTA's funding is for a small part of just the Atlanta metro. So, how do you want to match dollar for dollar? Per ratio of population? Of total state funding? By area served? What dollar are you wanting to match to what dollar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Have another source you want to point to that shows transit getting more dollar-to-dollar subsidies than cars?
So, a 9:1 per user funding ratio is acceptable? Whatever.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 09:16 PM
 
4,544 posts, read 3,000,499 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
There were 1.25 million road traffic deaths globally in 2013.
If cars had to be approved like pharmaceuticals, based on their safety record, they'd never make it to the market.p
The large majority of those deaths were in third-world countries with almost no traffic safety whatsoever. The US is low on the list. Hard to use that as a direct comparison.

Quote:
The "freedom" of the automobile, costs us a fortune, 20 times as much fuel, far more surface area, and kills thousands each year in the USA.
Why is freedom in quotes? Does the automobile not provide you with a freedom of mobility that transit simply cannot match?
 
Old 06-25-2018, 09:21 PM
bu2
 
9,303 posts, read 5,958,368 times
Reputation: 3729
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Have another source you want to point to that shows transit getting more dollar-to-dollar subsidies than cars?
I'm using YOUR source! You linked it.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 09:28 PM
 
4,544 posts, read 3,000,499 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
I'm using YOUR source! You linked it.
I've used his own sources' numbers against his own arguments numerous times. He never responds to those arguments. I've shown him that it appears that MARTA alone is subsidized dollar-for-dollar more than the entire state highway network. He doesn't answer to that. He just goes on posting these arguments, even after being shown that they appear to be false.
 
Old 06-25-2018, 11:29 PM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
5,091 posts, read 3,604,376 times
Reputation: 2717
This thread proves that anything short of the status quo is to be lambasted and shunned. Keep kicking that can down the road, fellas.
 
Old 06-26-2018, 11:07 AM
 
1,410 posts, read 1,606,187 times
Reputation: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
The northern counties are all growing faster than the city. Its the southern counties that are growing slower.
Atlanta is "planning" on what happens if the population doubles. They aren't "expecting" it to double.
Based on ARC estimates Atlanta added more residents over the last two years than any county North, South East and West other Gwinnett and Cobb and in the last year the city grew more than non-Atlanta Fulton county. The census estimate has the city adding more residents from 2016 - 2017 than any county except Gwinnett.

https://33n.atlantaregional.com/regi...tion-estimates

The city is specifically planning for a population that will be at a minimum double the current population. The whole point of the city design project was to determine 'what Atlanta wants to be', a principle component of which was 'how big Atlanta wants to be'. The zoning update currently under way will be based on the findings of this document.
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