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Old 07-03-2018, 12:37 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yet, we have subsidized and hidden the costs of driving so most people will turn their nose up at a $2.50 MARTA fare and think they are somehow saving money by driving instead.
Where on earth did you get the idea that people drive instead of taking Marta because they think it's cheaper?

If you don't live right up on a station AND your job isn't also right up on a station it's mostly about practicality or even feasibility for people who work where there is not Marta at all.

 
Old 07-03-2018, 12:55 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
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So you think MARTA is cheaper than driving? Or do you not know since you don't know how much your driving commute is costing you?

If MegaBus launched a guarantee tomorrow that their $500 bus tickets between Atlanta and Raleigh NC would cost less than any other method, how would you file a claim against that? Obviously you could pull up a lower priced Greyhound, Amtrak or airline fare. But what about driving?

You don't really know how much driving is actually costing you when you are trying to decide between taking a plane, train, bus, or car yet the price of driving is so hidden and subsidized that people often just drive and think it is somehow the cheaper option.
 
Old 07-03-2018, 12:58 PM
 
2,119 posts, read 495,432 times
Reputation: 2368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yeah, a key problem is most drivers aren't aware of the subsidies that are making driving artificially appear to be the cheaper choice.

Take this massive new Emory midtown deck as an example. It is being spun as there is obviously demand for it since the other deck is filling up. However, I have family that works for Emory and they get their parking for free. If they stared charging the $100+ a month to all users that is really reflective of the costs of this deck then some workers might consider other alternatives. And that is just the tip of the parking iceberg all that free parking is not really free.

Next ask yourself how much you are paying for the roads on a five mile drive in metro Atlanta. For MARTA it is $2.50 and basically all transit systems it it pretty obvious what you are directly paying when you ride. But no one can tell you how much you paid to drive through that new non-tolled billion dollar highway interchange.

Seriously, I assume you do your car commute every day. Can you tell me how much that one-way commute is costing you? How much money stays in your pocket if you work from home one day?

For MARTA I can tell you it is $2.12 and a half each way because I buy the $42.50 discounted 20-fare set.

Now the amount of the subsidy is a separate discussion. Just like how much is the subsidy on the $2 hot dog at Mercedes Benz stadium? But we do know it is $2 directly out of your pocket and that "fan-first" pricing has resulted in a 3X increase in concessions sales at MBS. How much of an increase in driving do we really want to be encouraging? If people are given more direct information about the true costs of each trip they are driving such as knowing they directly have to pay a $10 toll to drive five miles into the city and $15 to park many people will more seriously reconsider their options in how they get around. And that is a good thing.
When I drive on gas? 8 cents a mile. When I plug in and use electricity? 3 cents a mile. I don't use taxpayer subsidized parking decks to park, personally. My car is parked on land where my employer owns the parking lot as well as the building.

Until we find out factual numbers on food sold at the stadium, let's refrain from calling it subsidized. At Charlotte Motor Speedway (now Lowe's Motor Speedway) food prices are exorbitant not because food prices are unregulated/unsubsidized, it's because the venue takes a 40% cut of gross. It's what you're talking about, but in reverse - the vendors are subsidizing the race track!

Now, as a consumer, which way would you want it?
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:41 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
When I drive on gas? 8 cents a mile. When I plug in and use electricity? 3 cents a mile. I don't use taxpayer subsidized parking decks to park, personally. My car is parked on land where my employer owns the parking lot as well as the building.

Until we find out factual numbers on food sold at the stadium, let's refrain from calling it subsidized. At Charlotte Motor Speedway (now Lowe's Motor Speedway) food prices are exorbitant not because food prices are unregulated/unsubsidized, it's because the venue takes a 40% cut of gross. It's what you're talking about, but in reverse - the vendors are subsidizing the race track!

Now, as a consumer, which way would you want it?
I guess that is the bigger point I am trying to get across. Figuring out the subsidies on the back end are one thing and who is really subsidizing who. But let's look at the front end and see how these subsidizes are really distorting what people choose. For example if a real estate development helps "subsidize" a public transit connection to their project we all win (unless you think more transit destinations and riders is bad).

Now, if your private employer or a government office decides to subsidize the parking of all its employees & visitors regardless of how they decide to get to work that is not such a clear win. People that might take transit or an Uber only think about the 8-cents-a-mile cost of gas then and will drive ten miles to work thinking $0.80 is less than $2.50 for transit fare or a $5 UberPool. In reality that results in more people driving to work and the employer needing to build more parking that costs thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars a space (lets not even go into the rabbit whole of how you really should be paying in gas tax for that billion dollar interchange over a maintained dirt road).

As a society, do we really think 8-cents-a-mile is really reflective of not only the true price of driving but how much we want to encourage it?

And if driving really is costing 8-cents-a-mile why are the poorest often taking transit instead?

What about comparing to an Uber? If Uber is losing huge amounts of money as a company, their drivers are under paid, yet Sam is having to pay $40 to go five miles where is that difference in money going?
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:47 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
Reputation: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
So you think MARTA is cheaper than driving? Or do you not know since you don't know how much your driving commute is costing you?

.

If MegaBus launched a guarantee tomorrow that their $500 bus tickets between Atlanta and Raleigh NC would cost less than any other method, how would you file a claim against that? Obviously you could pull up a lower priced Greyhound, Amtrak or airline fare. But what about driving?

You don't really know how much driving is actually costing you when you are trying to decide between taking a plane, train, bus, or car yet the price of driving is so hidden and subsidized that people often just drive and think it is somehow the cheaper option.

You are all over the place.

Both modes are subsidized and both require a user fee.

You either pay the fair or you pay a gas tax and annual tag tax.

If you are trying to say one is more subsidized than the other you need to provide numbers.


If you think canít figure out how much it cost them to drive when we know the gas tax and out tag fee vs a Marta fare Iím not sure what you are smokin.

Who just ďdrives and thinks itís cheaperĒ?

Iím still trying to figure out where this strawman cane from.
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:49 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
You are all over the place.

Both modes are subsidized and both require a user fee.

You either pay the fair or you pay a gas tax and annual tag tax.

If you are trying to say one is more subsidized than the other you need to provide numbers.


If you think canít figure out how much it cost them to drive when we know the gas tax and out tag fee vs a Marta fare Iím not sure what you are smokin.

Who just ďdrives and thinks itís cheaperĒ?

Iím still trying to figure out where this strawman cane from.

So you do or don't think driving is cheaper? Or do you not know?
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:50 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
Reputation: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I guess that is the bigger point I am trying to get across. Figuring out the subsidies on the back end are one thing and who is really subsidizing who. But let's look at the front end and see how these subsidizes are really distorting what people choose. For example if a real estate development helps "subsidize" a public transit connection to their project we all win (unless you think more transit destinations and riders is bad).

Now, if your private employer or a government office decides to subsidize the parking of all its employees & visitors regardless of how they decide to get to work that is not such a clear win. People that might take transit or an Uber only think about the 8-cents-a-mile cost of gas then and will drive ten miles to work thinking $0.80 is less than $2.50 for transit fare or a $5 UberPool. In reality that results in more people driving to work and the employer needing to build more parking that costs thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars a space (lets not even go into the rabbit whole of how you really should be paying in gas tax for that billion dollar interchange over a maintained dirt road).

As a society, do we really think 8-cents-a-mile is really reflective of not only the true price of driving but how much we want to encourage it?

And if driving really is costing 8-cents-a-mile why are the poorest often taking transit instead?

What about comparing to an Uber? If Uber is losing huge amounts of money as a company, their drivers are under paid, yet Sam is having to pay $40 to go five miles where is that difference in money going?
So your whole argument is people drive because they think itís cheaper than Marta? Are you serious?
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:52 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
Reputation: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
So you do or don't think driving is cheaper? Or do you not know?
Cheaper for who?
 
Old 07-03-2018, 01:56 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
Reputation: 405
People drive due to feasibility or convenience- never in my life have heard anyone imply it’s cheaper from a daily standpoint.
 
Old 07-03-2018, 02:44 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
Cheaper for who?
End users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
People drive due to feasibility or convenience- never in my life have heard anyone imply it’s cheaper from a daily standpoint.


You don't think people ever just drive somewhere because they think it is cheaper then getting an Uber, bus, train, or plane? ddm2k just above said (s)he considers cars to cost $0.08 a mile. You don't think that is a factor that has lead him/her to drive somewhere over other alternatives?

And if you think price is not a concern for drivers why do we need subsidies? Why not toll roads?

Last edited by jsvh; 07-03-2018 at 02:56 PM..
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