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Old 07-04-2018, 12:54 PM
 
311 posts, read 110,550 times
Reputation: 405

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I have have already been around the bush with Sam's page long line-by-line arguments enough. When we get down to it we actually agree on major points. He just likes to argue to argue with me. I have basically responded to all these sort of things with him in the past. No point in doing it again, but if there is something you think I have not answered, feel free to specify.
.
I missed those arguments, but he explained what I’m getting at better than me. So there’s that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post

Ultimately I am trying to get to the question of why some in this thread think roads are deserving of subsidies that could otherwise be directed to things such as sidewalks, parks, police, and transit.

The only thing people seem to come up with is "I like roads and a lot of people use them". Which is not a valid reason to subsidize something. A lot of people like smoking too, which good for them, they should have that choice as long as they don't do it in a way that harms others but that doesn't mean we should subsidize it. In fact, we should probably tax it to discourage it and fund other more deserving things.
Here is a start


https://www.google.com/search?source....5.E2crWufAf1c


Honestly, since you arguing for the nuclear option it may better to just make a new thread asking why governments should subsidize roads and maybe you will more answers.

 
Old 07-04-2018, 01:35 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
You do realize most important things in this world exist without subsidies, right?

Roads aren't going away.

I am asking why we have policies and subsidies to artificially encourage more driving when those resources could go to better things such as sidewalks, parks, police, or transit.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Vinings
6,098 posts, read 3,109,095 times
Reputation: 3283
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I am asking why we have policies and subsidies to artificially encourage more driving when those resources could go to better things such as sidewalks, parks, police, or transit.
Possibly because most people around these parts like driving around in cars and don't agree with your subjective opinions and statements, about transit being "better". Whatever that means.

I am very much pro- raising taxes for public transit, but in addition to, not instead of funds spent on roads.

We need both.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 01:54 PM
 
28,528 posts, read 25,273,505 times
Reputation: 9817
I am just tired of being treated like an evil, politically incorrect pariah because I like to drive.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 02:10 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Transit is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable thus more deserving of subsidies.

Just because you like something doesn't mean it deserves subsidies.

Just because something doesn't get subsidies doesn't mean it will disappear or you are an evil pariah for using something that is unsubsidized.

Drive all you want but we should not be subsidizing it or encouraging more of it just because people like it.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 02:14 PM
 
28,528 posts, read 25,273,505 times
Reputation: 9817
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Transit is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable thus more deserving of subsidies.
Better for business, yet totally subsidized by the Little Man.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
1,843 posts, read 2,066,718 times
Reputation: 2041
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Since it is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.
LOL, why even respond to such ridiculous non-truths?

I'm still all for transit, but we've got to start thinking outside the box with lightweight, plastic components with different systems for movement.

$2 million heavy, stainless steel everything for rail cars and associated components is akin to 1950s cars and appliances made of all metal pieces that weighed a ton.

Being physically constrained to a track will never be as efficient or accessible as what rubber tires can accommodate.

Better for businesses on the finite number of available spaces next to tracks.

You really must be trying to elicit any response for the sake of it to continue making posts like this, as if you've read all the times all of this has been disproven left, right , & sideways.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 03:33 PM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
He won’t respond to you. He knows he knows his ideas are looney.
Oh, I know. No matter how many times I have proved his assertions wrong, even using his own links, he just skips past it and keeps saying the same things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I have have already been around the bush with Sam's page long line-by-line arguments enough. When we get down to it we actually agree on major points. He just likes to argue to argue with me.
It's cute that you think that. If you would ever respond to being proven wrong with sources, it would be one thing. But you keep repeating the same arguments, even after being proved wrong, often using your own sources as proof.

Quote:
but if there is something you think I have not answered, feel free to specify.
Is GDOT funded 90% by gas taxes or not? If you think not, then refute their own budgetary documents with a source that isn't four years old.

Quote:
Ultimately I am trying to get to the question of why some in this thread think roads are deserving of subsidies that could otherwise be directed to things such as sidewalks, parks, police, and transit.
Because those things have their own subsidies, quite hefty in fact. By my math, more than roads! Why do you insist that roads get none at all when they are a major factor in the economy?

Quote:
A lot of people like smoking too, which good for them, they should have that choice as long as they don't do it in a way that harms others but that doesn't mean we should subsidize it. In fact, we should probably tax it to discourage it and fund other more deserving things.
Oh. My. God. You really don't understand these things. In Georgia, there is a 37˘ per pack excise tax on cigarettes. In places like New York, it's more than $4.00.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yep. I really think you pulled $9 out of the sky because I don't think most anyone has a real grasp of the costs of driving due to how subsidized and hidden the costs are. Maybe Sam can help out with clarifying where his $2.60 came from.
I actually meant $12.60. And if you want to know where I got that from, I'll tell you:

In 2017, my total outlay for everything automobile-related for two cars was $11,568.03. That breaks down as follows:
  • Auto Insurance: $3,132.05
  • Auto Loan: $3,212.22
  • Repairs: $1,556.59
  • Services: $448.80
  • Gas: $2,882.12
  • Parking: $306.25 (more than half of which was reimbursed)
  • Tolls: $30.00

I know I drove right at 15,000 miles. I low-balled my wife's driving at 7,000 miles. Any more, and it would just make the end cost per mile go down.

So, I have $11,568.03 in expenses with 22,000 miles driven. That comes to 52.6˘ per mile. My current commute from Upper Westside to an area off Fulton Industrial is 12.1 miles. 12.1 miles at 52.6˘ per mile is $6.36. So, that's a $12.72 roundtrip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
You do realize most important things in this world exist without subsidies, right?
Like what? Roads are subsidized. Transit is subsidized. Air travel is subsidized. Agriculture is subsidized. The oil industry is subsidized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
You really must be trying to elicit any response for the sake of it to continue making posts like this, as if you've read all the times all of this has been disproven left, right , & sideways.
Troll factor high.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 06:16 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Better for business, yet totally subsidized by the Little Man.
arjay, subsidies to support things that benefit society make sense. Transit gets drivers off the road and is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.

You hear a lot of people that want government subsidies and policies to protect their driving habits but you don't hear a lot of people denying that transit is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable and thus more deserving of those subsidies that roads are currently getting. Everyone in this thread agrees the transit deserves subsidies and basically all think they need more subsidies & transit access. Unfortunately people have also spent decades thinking that cars are this libertarian ideal of freedom and independence when in fact cart culture has been built on more government subsidies and heavy handed policies.

People don't like to be told they are leeches especially when that activity has so many other downsides and is taking tax dollars from more deserving alternatives such as the police, parks, sidewalks, and transit.

Look at Sam's post. He went through all this effort and thinks he has figured out every cent he spends on his daily car commute yet there is not a penny in there allocated for roads. He thinks since his source says 90% of GDOT's budget comes from the highway trust fund and gas taxes that he is paying for 90% of the roads he drives on out of his gas line item. But that is very wrong. First of all, even 10% of the amount we spend on roads is ridiculous amount of money and way more than the profit margin in many industries. Then there is the reality that most of the roads you drive on are local roads that don't get gas tax money and even the federal highway trust fund is insolvent and has to be bailed out from the federal general fund.

I am all for people driving if they want to pay the extra costs, but people need to get over this idea that their roads are free. We need to redirect the car subsidies to more deserving sources or back into the little man's wallet if nothing else. Car dependency puts a heavy price on the poorest among us who simply cannot afford it even with the massive subsidies. We need to be using that money to be providing them with more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable options.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 06:49 PM
 
28,528 posts, read 25,273,505 times
Reputation: 9817
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
People don't like to be told they are leeches especially when that activity has so many other downsides and is taking tax dollars from more deserving alternatives such as the police, parks, sidewalks, and transit.

Look at Sam's post. He went through all this effort and thinks he has figured out every cent he spends on his daily car commute yet there is not a penny in there allocated for roads. He thinks since his source says 90% of GDOT's budget comes from the highway trust fund and gas taxes that he is paying for 90% of the roads he drives on out of his gas line item. But that is very wrong. First of all, even 10% of the amount we spend on roads is ridiculous amount of money and way more than the profit margin in many industries. Then there is the reality that most of the roads you drive on are local roads that don't get gas tax money and even the federal highway trust fund is insolvent and has to be bailed out from the federal general fund.

I am all for people driving if they want to pay the extra costs, but people need to get over this idea that their roads are free. We need to redirect the car subsidies to more deserving sources or back into the little man's wallet if nothing else. Car dependency puts a heavy price on the poorest among us who simply cannot afford it even with the massive subsidies. We need to be using that money to be providing them with more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable options.
jsvh, just to respond to part of your post.

No, hardworking folks who are busting their humps every day to make their careers go and to put food on their family's table and to pay for our school system and elected officials' steak dinners, lip sync contests, jaunts to gay Paree, South Africa and the Superbowl, and armies of ultra high priced law firms to defend such carrying on -- no, they don't like to be told they are leeches.

Aside from that, consider what roads are and how they function. They don't just serve cars. They also serve at least half of MARTA riders. They serve the employees of MARTA (including its top brass) and gazillions of other businesses and institutions. They are where the vast majority of stores, theaters, museums, churches, parks, schools and other amenities are located. They are our utility corridors. They are the corridors for sewers and waste disposal. They serve cyclists and pedestrians. They allow us to send and receive goods and services. They are where telephone and internet cables are located. They connect us to other cities and to airports, seaports and rail stations.

So let's be real. It's not the "roads vs transit" zero-sum argument that you are trying to frame. The system is far more complex and nuanced. And it doesn't help to demonize those with a different perspective from yours.
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