U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-04-2018, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,729 posts, read 8,886,611 times
Reputation: 5241

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Since it is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.
None of those things. Simply none.

 
Old 07-04-2018, 08:33 PM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Everyone in this thread agrees the transit deserves subsidies and basically all think they need more subsidies & transit access.
I think you need to raise user fees for transit to cover more than 15% of costs. 85% subsidy is ludicrous.

Quote:
People don't like to be told they are leeches especially when that activity has so many other downsides
People don't like to be told they are leaches by someone who is leaching more.

Quote:
Look at Sam's post. He went through all this effort and thinks he has figured out every cent he spends on his daily car commute yet there is not a penny in there allocated for roads. He thinks since his source says 90% of GDOT's budget comes from the highway trust fund and gas taxes that he is paying for 90% of the roads he drives on out of his gas line item. But that is very wrong.
How so? Educate me. 90% of GDOT funding for highways and major roads is from gas taxes alone. Unless you care to debate that source and provide sources to contradict it, you are wrong. The other roads I drive on are paid for by property tax, which I pay. Also, keep in mind that without those roads, your busses would not be able to operate, your ubers would be non-existent, and your bikes and your scooters would have far fewer options on which to ride. That 10% subsidy can cover those things.

Quote:
First of all, even 10% of the amount we spend on roads is ridiculous amount of money and way more than the profit margin in many industries.
10% of GDOT's budget is $200 million statewide. That's less than MARTA's salaries alone!! How in the **** is 10% of the entire statewide highway and major road network worth LESS than just the salaries of MARTA?? Also note that non-users pay more than twice that amount towards funding MARTA.

Quote:
Then there is the reality that most of the roads you drive on are local roads that don't get gas tax money
You mean the ones paid for by property tax, which I also pay? I also pay for the bike lanes that are on those roads, even though I will never use them. I also pay hundreds of dollars per year towards transit which I rarely use. Face it...us drivers not only cover the vast majority of our own costs, we cover yours, too.

Quote:
I am all for people driving if they want to pay the extra costs, but people need to get over this idea that their roads are free.
No one has said that. I don't know where you keep coming up with this tripe from.

Quote:
We need to redirect the car subsidies to more deserving sources or back into the little man's wallet if nothing else. Car dependency puts a heavy price on the poorest among us who simply cannot afford it even with the massive subsidies. We need to be using that money to be providing them with more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable options.
How many times can you copy and paste the exact same phrase. No, we don't need to redirect car subsidies. They come to maybe 10% in this state. Transit is being subsidized to the tune of almost 85%. Yet, you still call drivers the leaches. You are the leach. That's okay, but own it. Accept it. Be it. Know it.

Transit is not more efficient for the vast majority of people. It may be cheaper, but it is not more efficient. In almost all cases, transit is slower.

You really need to understand that you have lost this argument. You don't understand your own sources. Your claims are generally wrong, and have been proven so. Your claims of what others say or think is almost always made up. What you state is pure opinion and not based in fact or reality. Once you figure this out and accept it, it will be easier to have a realistic discussion. But, if you continue to base your argument in falsehoods and fantasy, we will keep going in circles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
None of those things. Simply none.
No, no...it is certainly cheaper for them. Most of the ride is paid for by others, so your out-of-pocket costs are pretty low. If people were to pay the true costs of a MARTA fare, it would be almost $17.50 each way.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 10:43 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
jsvh, just to respond to part of your post.

No, hardworking folks who are busting their humps every day to make their careers go and to put food on their family's table and to pay for our school system and elected officials' steak dinners, lip sync contests, jaunts to gay Paree, South Africa and the Superbowl, and armies of ultra high priced law firms to defend such carrying on -- no, they don't like to be told they are leeches.

Aside from that, consider what roads are and how they function. They don't just serve cars. They also serve at least half of MARTA riders. They serve the employees of MARTA (including its top brass) and gazillions of other businesses and institutions. They are where the vast majority of stores, theaters, museums, churches, parks, schools and other amenities are located. They are our utility corridors. They are the corridors for sewers and waste disposal. They serve cyclists and pedestrians. They allow us to send and receive goods and services. They are where telephone and internet cables are located. They connect us to other cities and to airports, seaports and rail stations.

So let's be real. It's not the "roads vs transit" zero-sum argument that you are trying to frame. The system is far more complex and nuanced. And it doesn't help to demonize those with a different perspective from yours.
Certainly.

But you agree that Atlanta's relationship with the automobile is reaching a crossroads and the time has come to shift funding towards transit. That doesn't mean roads disappear. But transit does benefit from road users picking up more of their share (irregardless of how much transit is subsidized).

What is the reluctance to paying a toll to pay for the road you are driving on? Surely people have to realize that gas taxes are not covering especially as we move towards alternative fuel vehicles.
 
Old 07-04-2018, 10:54 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
None of those things. Simply none.
Well you are going to have to take that up with other car lovers like Otakumaster and Sam that have spent a couple pages acknowledging that transit is cheaper and the option that the poor use more (equitable). You also might want to go review jetgraphics posts detailing how (obviously) a steel wheeled vehicle carrying hundreds is more efficient than rubber tires carrying one.

Transit provides accessibility to the handicapped and disabled that driving cannot.

A more efficient electric vehicle is greener than a gas powered single occupancy vehicle (obviously).

Transit is statistically safer per mile.

Businesses and development are flooding to transit accessible locations.

To review: transit is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable and thus deserving of subsidies over roads.

All of those things. Simply all.

Edit: It also promotes better urban design and a healthier lifestyle too. So, so many reasons to correct public policy & subsidies to stop favoring cars over transit.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 07:07 AM
 
1,916 posts, read 1,650,456 times
Reputation: 1765
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
But you agree that Atlanta's relationship with the automobile is reaching a crossroads and the time has come to shift funding towards transit.
I think we are seeing the last gasp for transit in Atlanta. We will either move forward with smart transit plans that bring people to the pro transit side simply because the system works for them, or this will be the final boondoggle for transit.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 04:42 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown_dog_us View Post
I think we are seeing the last gasp for transit in Atlanta. We will either move forward with smart transit plans that bring people to the pro transit side simply because the system works for them, or this will be the final boondoggle for transit.
Guess we will just have to give it a few years to see, but everything appears to show in reality the reverse is happening. The suburban car-dependency boondoggle is reaching it's breaking point. Many of these suburban areas are becoming the new slums and cannot sustain their sprawled out infrastructure on their low-density tax base. The Highway Trust Fund is reaching insolvency. Legacy public transit systems are getting new popularity and expansions. All sorts of new micro-transit companies are popping up all over the place from electric scooters to Uber-bus systems to Elon Musk's Hyper-loop tunnels.

Atlanta and America's relationship with the car is at a crossroads. We are realizing we cannot rely on 90%+ car-dependency to get around.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,729 posts, read 8,886,611 times
Reputation: 5241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Well you are going to have to take that up with other car lovers like Otakumaster and Sam that have spent a couple pages acknowledging that transit is cheaper and the option that the poor use more (equitable). You also might want to go review jetgraphics posts detailing how (obviously) a steel wheeled vehicle carrying hundreds is more efficient than rubber tires carrying one.

Transit provides accessibility to the handicapped and disabled that driving cannot.

A more efficient electric vehicle is greener than a gas powered single occupancy vehicle (obviously).

Transit is statistically safer per mile.

Businesses and development are flooding to transit accessible locations.

To review: transit is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable and thus deserving of subsidies over roads.

All of those things. Simply all.

Edit: It also promotes better urban design and a healthier lifestyle too. So, so many reasons to correct public policy & subsidies to stop favoring cars over transit.
Efficiency - Not for the vast majority of us who live in metro Atlanta.

Cheaper - Lacking up-to-date data, in 2012 fares covered about 33% of MARTA's operating costs. That does not include capital costs. Thus, a huge portion of MARTA's expenses are subsidized by all taxpayers within MARTA's counties.

Safety - I imagine you are correct.

Economic Development - Sure businesses are moving to transit accessible locations. They are also locating in transit inaccessible locations.

And, I tend to agree with you that it promotes a healthier lifestyle. Here's the rub, though - cars are here to stay. Atlanta and the region simply cannot afford to build out a transit system that will come close to carrying the folks that cars carry. It is just not possible. We missed the boat 30 years ago. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 06:04 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
No one is saying cars should or even could disappear. They will still be the dominate way people get around the metro for the foreseeable future.

However, that does not mean they should continue to get the disproportionate favoritism over other modes. If we run light rail down a street we probably need cars to give up a lane of RoW so transit does not get stuck in traffic. When funding falls short for road projects we need to find a way to raise that money from higher gas taxes or tolls and not from general fund type sources that could be going to things like parks, sidewalks, transit, or police instead.

You can only have 100% of any given thing. And growth of alternatives such as transit and walk-ability will come at the expense of car dependence. It is just all about trade offs and options.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 06:54 PM
bu2
 
9,260 posts, read 5,934,125 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Guess we will just have to give it a few years to see, but everything appears to show in reality the reverse is happening. The suburban car-dependency boondoggle is reaching it's breaking point. Many of these suburban areas are becoming the new slums and cannot sustain their sprawled out infrastructure on their low-density tax base. The Highway Trust Fund is reaching insolvency. Legacy public transit systems are getting new popularity and expansions. All sorts of new micro-transit companies are popping up all over the place from electric scooters to Uber-bus systems to Elon Musk's Hyper-loop tunnels.

Atlanta and America's relationship with the car is at a crossroads. We are realizing we cannot rely on 90%+ car-dependency to get around.
All but 6 cities in the US have 90+% car dependency. And that figure is even higher when you consider "road" dependency as buses rely on roads.
 
Old 07-05-2018, 06:56 PM
bu2
 
9,260 posts, read 5,934,125 times
Reputation: 3689
And all of the other top 37 urban areas are more dense than Atlanta, all but a handful significantly more dense.
Atlanta is not NYC and you can't plug in the NYC methods into Atlanta.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top