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Old 05-20-2018, 11:03 PM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Here is a list of hundreds of places where cars are straight up banned (including many areas that are home to tens of thousands of people): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_car-free_places

Many more bans are planned to take effect in the next couple of years in larger cities such as Oslo and Madrid.

What is the boundary for "anti-car" that you fear that will be crossed resulting in economic collapse?
You seem to believe that many of these car-free zones are huge swaths of land housing those tens of thousands of people. The second largest car-free zone in Europe is in Brussels. It is 0.5 sq km, or about 0.2 square miles. That is about the size of the southern half of Piedmont Park. So, since Piedmont Park is car free, I guess you could say we have a larger car-free area in the middle of our city than the second-largest car-free area in Europe!

The zone being discussed for Oslo is said to be the largest car-free zone in Europe, possibly the world. It comes in at about 0.75 square miles, or about half the size of our downtown.

Most of the rest of the list is single streets in historic downtown areas, and are hardly even worth bringing up.

I don't know where you think I'm talking about economic collapse, certainly not with such small areas.

But, as usual, you are missing the point: yes, some places will be fine to take a lane here and there for some transit. I've even suggested a few. But, that is not an end-all, be-all solution, and will not work in every area. It would actually be very detrimental to a lot of areas. Pointing at one example and saying that it's proof that it will work anywhere is either ignorant or intentionally ignoring reality. Either way, you can't choke the region for 20 years while you try to get your transit running. That is a recipe for failure. It needs to be very carefully implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
You compare southeast Atlanta to the Clifton corridor transit project, but what about actual people a long the Clifton corridor area? Again your highlighting the problem.

Your ignoring the actual community and focus more people commuting first.

Making area more pedestrian friendly helps that community, Widen roads and etc does the opposites. The problem is walkablity would be local concern people half way across the metro wouldn't care if another part of metro is. So it would be ignoring part of neighborhoods local concerns in favor for people communing. That where the entitlement comes from.

People feel that other entitle to have wide roads in other neighborhoods and entitle there better be lots of parking.

See your thinking transit could only benefit people commuting to a neighborhood but actually it would benefit the travel to neighborhoods because there could be less cars.

Also Sitting traffic for 10 mins because some one lives in a neighborhood is a lot different sitting traffic 30 mins to over a hour because your commuting. Traffic is way worst of a hustle for people commuting because they don't actual live by so they're wasting more time.

So what I'm addressing where is the self responsibility, ............... Commuting and traffic should be part of someone decision where to live...... You can't live in Dallas county but Work in the Gwinnett but have the nerve to complain about roads and traffic...... Where moving away from ideal that this person did this to themselves. That there no consequences for bad choices but don't worry the Government will them bail them,
I honestly have no idea what you said here, so I can't really respond to it. But, what I said was true. You can't accuse me or other posters of feeling "entitled" to roads because we don't live somewhere, but rather commute through, then say that someone who desires rail lines to replace existing road lanes is not "entitled" and say it's because it's their community, when I specifically referred to someone who does not live in the community professing a desire for something in that community as a commuting option (commuting = people commuting through). So, yeah...wanting to take away lanes for your option is just as much entitlement as anyone else wanting to have a decent roadway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
You are touching on a critical point. Our transportation planning (such as it exists) gives way too much priority to commuters over the people who actually live in the area. Local residents who make their homes in an area should come first, not cut-thru commuters coming from far off locations.
Which is why most of us would like a good highway and arterial network to handle those loads, so that people do not have to use neighborhood and community roads to get around.

What these scholars don't seem to understand is that if you take away the higher capacity roadways and leave small community and neighborhood roads behind, those roads will become the through roads. They will create the very problem they claim they are trying to fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Not true. They will continue to use our existing road network just like they do everywhere else in the world even places that have done far more aggressive road diets that Atlantans would ever imagine.
The vast majority of roads in Atlanta are two-lane, non-median roads.

Quote:
The traffic apocalypse is overhyped. People will find alternatives and goods will still get delivered.
Yep. The alternatives will be driving down your street instead of the arterial or highway you choked off. But, that's okay, right?

Quote:
That is kind of how trains work. One light rail lane can handle as much capacity as a 12 laned highway (and heavy rail can do multiple times that).
Most train lines do not handle a train every minute.

Quote:
Complaints about transit vehicles being mostly empty are quite ridiculous because they are simply a testament to how much capacity transit has.
What? I really gotta hear this one...

Quote:
That should also show why road diets / giving up car RoW for alternatives makes so much sense. If you could turn two lanes on a road into the equivalent of twelve lanes without needing to encroach into anyone's front yard or take a single sq ft of emanate domain, why are we not doing that for every road that is reaching capacity? We should.
Because many people on those roads are not on those roads for the entire time. You need a much more vast network, and you need to carefully plan it. You can't just say "take lanes from that road because this method equals 12 lanes" and say it will work.

Quote:
Roads / cars alone will never be able to satisfy the capacity for people in a large city.
Funny how you are the only one who keeps repeating that. No one else, not one other person on this forum,, has said the contrary.

Quote:
Your 15 wait in traffic and those "bilions and billions in lost productivity" will only get worse and worse. Roads simply cannot do the job alone.
What productivity am I losing? Is my employer paying me for my time on the train while I do extra work somehow. My only concern is how much time I have at home outside of work. Since my time at home is worth $1 billion dollars per hour to me, if I took transit and I had to leave an extra hour on each end of my trip for the additional time to take transit, can I state that it cost me two billion dollars in family time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
ITT: GDOT should continue to throw billions at propping up an unsustainable road network so that people can continue to be slaves to the automobile.
Keep in mind that MARTA's current operating budget is around 1/4 of the entire GDOT budget (which also funds bike lanes and stuff), and is far more heavily subsidized. That's 1/4 the cost to run a rail line that covers very little of even ITP, and a convoluted bus network mostly ITP, and moved fewer people than just the downtown connector does. The cost of a transit network to move even an appreciable fraction of what the GDOT moves each day will cost far more.

We still need to do it, but let's not delude ourselves that it's more economical.

And if you use transit, you are still a slave to transit. What exactly is the difference?

 
Old 05-20-2018, 11:24 PM
 
28,528 posts, read 25,273,505 times
Reputation: 9817
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
And if you use transit, you are still a slave to transit. What exactly is the difference?
Valid point.
 
Old 05-21-2018, 12:55 AM
 
10,142 posts, read 7,137,613 times
Reputation: 3132
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
And if you use transit, you are still a slave to transit. What exactly is the difference?
I know plenty of people that only get around by car and simply don't have other reasonable options. But everyone I know, including myself, that regularly uses transit also regularly uses multiple other methods: car, bus, train, bike, walk, etc. That is the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
You seem to believe that many of these car-free zones are huge swaths of land housing those tens of thousands of people. The second largest car-free zone in Europe is in Brussels. It is 0.5 sq km, or about 0.2 square miles. That is about the size of the southern half of Piedmont Park. So, since Piedmont Park is car free, I guess you could say we have a larger car-free area in the middle of our city than the second-largest car-free area in Europe!
And you think, what? I am suggesting we need to turn all of metro Atlanta into a car free zone?

I am suggesting things like road diets and pedestrian plazas in strategic places. It sure must be inconvenient for your narrative about pending economic collapse that the places Atlanta has already done those things like that such as downtown Decatur, Eastside (North Ave & Ponce around PCM), & Broad St downtown are some of the most economically vibrant and thriving sections of the metro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
...lots of other stuff...
I have given up on doing the line-by-line replys to you. Get past the straw man stuff / implying I am suggesting we just start closing every road and need to start shooting drivers on sight. All I am looking for agreement on is that closing lanes to cars should be on the table and evaluated on a case by case basis where we need to offer higher capacity alternatives. That doesn't mean we never build another road lane again either, road expansions should be evaluated on a case by case basis as well where there is enough users to fund it and it won't harm neighborhoods.

I am going to bed.


Here, This nice old man wrote you a song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiYJJr_GpcI
 
Old 05-21-2018, 01:14 AM
 
4,367 posts, read 4,240,475 times
Reputation: 3355
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post

I honestly have no idea what you said here, so I can't really respond to it. But, what I said was true. You can't accuse me or other posters of feeling "entitled" to roads because we don't live somewhere, but rather commute through, then say that someone who desires rail lines to replace existing road lanes is not "entitled" and say it's because it's their community, when I specifically referred to someone who does not live in the community professing a desire for something in that community as a commuting option (commuting = people commuting through). So, yeah...wanting to take away lanes for your option is just as much entitlement as anyone else wanting to have a decent roadway.
And it easy to tell you couldn't, because you didn't respond, I address what you said and more. "what I said was true." not remotely


Again your still thinking about commuters even when your started talking about transit your still talking about just the commuters. And that's the flaw...... What about the neighborhoods they are commuting though and to?

Some one commuting in a car would bring traffic and make an area less pedestrian friendly, that is not the situation with transit. so no they are not the same.

So if a community wanted to make there area more pedestrian friendly it's in their right to do so, The "entitlement" comes in that you believe car commuters can tell another community..... no!............. build us wide roads, make a more car oriented area, add more parking a lots,...... because they say so..... this make no sense.

So your statement "what I said was true" is not because transit riders would working the commuted to neighborhoods agenda. While car commuters would be conflicting with the commuted to and through neighborhoods..
 
Old 05-21-2018, 01:57 AM
 
4,367 posts, read 4,240,475 times
Reputation: 3355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster View Post
What if people can’t affird to live around corner from their job?

What if they switch jobs and hare already bought?
But they seem to be able to afford............ that car....... that gas....... and that insurance to keep that long commute Tho,......... Stop it.... no one is make people take these long commute but them selves. priorities and choices they made that choice.

Millions of people around the world live near their jobs. This isn't a break though concept, only in America the last 50 years people talking these radical commute.

A 100 years people wasn't commuting these extreme distance because they knew it was stupid and cars weren't like to today, what happen as more roads expend outward people became more careless and irresponsible about their living choices. Also They thought was benefits and wan't thinking about the consequences like traffic and etc.

It example of wanting to "have your cake and eating it too"

My point is traffic comes with that suburban lifestyle you can not fix that that. The only way to change that is to change your lifestyle... Their no point of blaming another community.
 
Old 05-21-2018, 04:40 AM
 
1,252 posts, read 544,568 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
This goes back to my point

People don't have to far often drive they want to drive, they making the choice to live far from there job and etc. You know fault that is...... it's there fault............ not the city or gov fault but there fault....
I agree! Take down all the highways and cut down the roads because its ALL THEIR FAULT commuters run amok those roads in those resourceful wasting polluting disgusting automobiles! Those insolent fools how could they hope to have a pleasant life wasting fuel taking up all that right of way in these inefficient transit machines...

-- Its THEIR fault the metro is just boiling over with traffic placing in the top 10 most congested cities in the WORLD despite the fact it has half the population of Chicago and not even a quarter of the population of Los Angeles!

-- Its THEIR fault that most job centric hubs like Alpharetta, Sandy Springs / Dunwoody, Downtown, just simply put cost to darned much to live in for the average citizen and its just complete assenine on their part that they couldn't get that workload of a job they commute to to pay them more than $45k a year in Alpharetta so they gotta hog up GA-400 instead!!! GRRRR!!!

-- Its THEIR fault they actually have dreams of a different lifestyle than living right ontop of their neighbor, or under them, or desire a place to live that doesn't require 4 room mates to afford.



In seriousness... you atleast managed to make me laugh. Not specifically at you...but in seriousness... its time to wake up and be a bit more realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Your focus is making a better place for commuter,........ Not commuter should be making better choices. That life style has "consequences" but as a society we have become careless and irresponsible.

A 100 years ago people where not living that far from there job and etc. Now people do it because responsibility is out the window and people expect no consequence for it. So traffic does not come from the lack of responsibility of making bad choices, apparently there's no such thing as bad choices, but rather it's the fault of another city for not entitling you to wide roads, parking lots and etc making there community less pedestrian friendly and etc.
Hi today's year 2018 we're about 100 years away from when one of the most era changing inventions ever was released... The Automobile.

People lived so close because they had to. The Automobile and roads changed this dramatically about commuting, it made things..convinient, and easier to get to. You no longer had to wait on a schedule, a train, or hop on a carriage .. you could go where you needed to go, when you needed to get there.

That asside...another much more important thing to realize is...the practicality of living has LONG changed... The population of the planet has more than doubled since that period of time... Squeeze all those people who want to live closer to their jobs ITP and see what happens to the cost of living...you think Atlanta's expensive now? You ain't seen nothin yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Now I do think Atlanta need better roads, Yes........... but there no need to point out or even caring about Houston and LA over obsessive road network and culture. Metro Atlanta is layed out more similar to Boston, DC and etc who don't have the obsessive roads like them either. So why look at Houston and LA when it makes more sense and more possible Atlanta could develop like metro Boston, DC and etc?
No you see this is the thing.. Atlanta HAS no layout..whatsoever... Atlanta is designed on the go, there is no "planning" -- and even when there is its instantly thrown to the wayside on the stake of property owners...which is the leading cause of the majority of our infrastructure issues... Grid layouts are boring and they arent pretty..but they are very effective. A bit of redundancy would go a long way to aiding some unecessary congestion...

And trust me...you don't want to be like DC or Boston (who literally became so frustrated with traffic they dug their highways underground) when it comes to traffic...both of which have transit systems which far outclass anything we have in the metro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
But they seem to be able to afford............ that car....... that gas....... and that insurance to keep that long commute Tho,......... Stop it.... no one is make people take these long commute but them selves. priorities and choices they made that choice.

Um dude... you really need to quit here... you're absolutely ridiculous... Okay fine I'll lay it out for you only because you just have a high cause....I gotta commend that atleast you'll stick up for what you believe...doesn't necessarily mean it makes sense though.

OKAY - The AVERAGE CAR in America is about 11 years old. Said 11 year old car is probably worth $8k to $15K at BEST. But lets give a better extreme example. At MSRP, my personal car costs around $51k, although I purchased it for $36k... Thats a brand new car.
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...729-story.html

The average HOUSE in Gwinnett is currently $214,884
https://www.zillow.com/gwinnett-county-ga/home-values/
Thats approximately $1,155 monthly mortgage with a decent interest rate.

The average HOUSE in Alpharetta is currently: $377,896
Thats approximately $2,030 monthly mortage with a decent interest rate.
https://www.zillow.com/alpharetta-ga/home-values/

Lets take the EXTREME example of even a brand new car and add that to that home loan in Gwinnett... at $51k (which was the MSRP of a fairly higher end model) -- add that to $214,884 --

Elementary my dear
$214,884
+$50,000
------------
$264,884

We are STILL more than $100K less than the House in Alpharetta... drat...I forgot insurance...fine ...on the HIGH END CAR add another $2 grand a year...

$266,884

Then crap what about fuel consumption... On that same car, I get about 19 MPG on the street, 26 on the highway and it costs me $50 per fillup in a 20 gallon tank. A full tank can last me about a week and a half commuting between Gwinnett and North Fulton... That is approximately $150 in fuel per month...then multiply that by 12... another $1,800..but I'll be optimistic and give you $3,000 a year...in fuel...and guess what...

$269,884

WE ARE STILL OVER $100,000 CHEAPER THAN A AVERAGE HOUSE IN ALPHARETTA.

Suburbia exists for a reason bub.

Now...unless you have actual facts with backed up data PROVING that living near a job center in the metro is the same cost as commuting to one.. ..please dont try that again... ...ever...

Stop looking at the stuff that happened centuries ago and compare life to what it is TODAY... right here and now...it would be impractical and infeasible to live like we did 100 years ago
which is why it doesn't happen. ...Compare the data and figures we have TODAY...not yesterday. Yesterday is gone...move on.

===============

Folks despite everything I've responded to above...nothing in this world has moved me in such a comical way in bursting out in laughter and tears as the thought of listening to jsvh SING about induced demand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Here, This nice old man wrote you a song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiYJJr_GpcI
I was about to listen to this but I want to make sure you have a solo in this performance...

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 05-21-2018 at 06:01 AM..
 
Old 05-21-2018, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,691 posts, read 16,711,706 times
Reputation: 5097
Quote:
Hi today's year 2018 we're about 100 years away from when one of the most era changing inventions ever was released... The Automobile.

People lived so close because they had to. The Automobile and roads changed this dramatically about commuting, it made things..convinient, and easier to get to. You no longer had to wait on a schedule, a train, or hop on a carriage .. you could go where you needed to go, when you needed to get there.

That asside...another much more important thing to realize is...the practicality of living has LONG changed... The population of the planet has more than doubled since that period of time... Squeeze all those people who want to live closer to their jobs ITP and see what happens to the cost of living...you think Atlanta's expensive now? You ain't seen nothin yet.
Did it? Our land use changed to accommodate the automobile. It use to be that commuters would use the streetcar system to access downtown which was packed with retail, jobs, etc. and then ride the streetcar back to their neighborhoods where at the streetcar stop there were things like grocery, retail, movies, pharmacies, hardware, etc. within walking distance from their SFH. You can see these examples in our intown, neighborhood villages; EAV, Oakhurst, Kirkwood, Candler Park, L5P, Westview, Summerhill, etc.) Our cities and communitites were more accessible and convenient before our land use policy changed to accommodate the automobile.
 
Old 05-21-2018, 09:32 AM
bu2
 
9,260 posts, read 5,934,125 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I know plenty of people that only get around by car and simply don't have other reasonable options. But everyone I know, including myself, that regularly uses transit also regularly uses multiple other methods: car, bus, train, bike, walk, etc. That is the difference.



And you think, what? I am suggesting we need to turn all of metro Atlanta into a car free zone?

I am suggesting things like road diets and pedestrian plazas in strategic places. It sure must be inconvenient for your narrative about pending economic collapse that the places Atlanta has already done those things like that such as downtown Decatur, Eastside (North Ave & Ponce around PCM), & Broad St downtown are some of the most economically vibrant and thriving sections of the metro.



I have given up on doing the line-by-line replys to you. Get past the straw man stuff / implying I am suggesting we just start closing every road and need to start shooting drivers on sight. All I am looking for agreement on is that closing lanes to cars should be on the table and evaluated on a case by case basis where we need to offer higher capacity alternatives. That doesn't mean we never build another road lane again either, road expansions should be evaluated on a case by case basis as well where there is enough users to fund it and it won't harm neighborhoods.

I am going to bed.


Here, This nice old man wrote you a song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiYJJr_GpcI
Downtown Decatur is doing well in housing, but retail is struggling. New offices don't seem to be going there. Even the county wants a "downtown Dekalb" somewhere else.

Decatur seems to be turning itself into a residential enclave. If Atlanta does the same, it will mean more Atlanta residents will have to drive out to the suburbs for their jobs.
 
Old 05-21-2018, 09:33 AM
 
4,500 posts, read 2,983,586 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I know plenty of people that only get around by car and simply don't have other reasonable options. But everyone I know, including myself, that regularly uses transit also regularly uses multiple other methods: car, bus, train, bike, walk, etc. That is the difference.
I can do all those things, too. This is not a new concept. Just because I choose not to, does not mean I can't. I can go wait 30-60 minutes for a bus five minutes from my house or work then spend the next 90 minutes going ten miles. I can walk 15 minutes to the grocery store, some restaurants, drug store, etc. I used Lyft and Uber last night to go from my house to SunTrust Park then to PCM and back. I have a bike in my garage. I can do all these things. Most people can. They just take far too long for me to consider on a daily basis. It's not that I am a slave to my car, it's that my car gets me almost everywhere on a far, far faster scale. That's not being a slave.

Quote:
And you think, what? I am suggesting we need to turn all of metro Atlanta into a car free zone?
No, but I think a lot of your positions are not very well thought through and many are based on logical fallacies and data and examples which are usually shown to not be what you claim they are.

Quote:
I am suggesting things like road diets and pedestrian plazas in strategic places. It sure must be inconvenient for your narrative about pending economic collapse that the places Atlanta has already done those things like that such as downtown Decatur, Eastside (North Ave & Ponce around PCM), & Broad St downtown are some of the most economically vibrant and thriving sections of the metro.
First of all, you keep claiming I have a narrative of economic collapse. I'm going to need you to source where I claimed a "road diet" or even a single closed road would lead to economic collapse. I'll wait. I have fully supported, and even suggested before they were done, turning some of our six-lane undivided roads into four lane roads with center turn lane. You're suggesting things like completely blocking off the only southern access (except for transit) to one of the city's large employment centers.

BTW, I cannot wait until the word "vibrant" fades away.

Quote:
All I am looking for agreement on is that closing lanes to cars should be on the table and evaluated on a case by case basis where we need to offer higher capacity alternatives. That doesn't mean we never build another road lane again either, road expansions should be evaluated on a case by case basis as well where there is enough users to fund it and it won't harm neighborhoods.
Wait...my position before was that it needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, and that it's not always the answer, and that plowing a train through an area might also harm the area. Everything needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. But, the reality is that we must keep our road infrastructure in line with a growing population as well. We cannot keep removing lanes and expect things to progress just fine. In no world will 100% of the new people use alternative methods. So that will add more people to our roads. And even if a large portion of existing residents and a huge portion of new residents use alternative methods, we will still have more people on our roads. We need to come to some sort of agreement as to how to make both systems work.

Even if we increased our transit four-fold from what it is now, we'd probably still see an overall increase of road users over the next few decades. You can't plan for that by removing lanes, shutting down roads, and blocking access. You have to figure out how to make things function. Somewhere, a road will need to be made bigger, and yes...it might impact an area. We could solve a lot of our issues with a new interstate, but that's a non-starter. Only a few roads can support losing lanes to transit options, as most of our roads are narrow two-lane roads. Look at the north half ITP and find me a single four-lane east-west road north of 17th and west of Piedmont/Roswell Rd. Chattahoochee might count, but other than that, I don't believe there is a single four-lane east-west road in that entire 44 square mile area. There are a few north-south routes. East of Piedmont/Roswell doesn't have much either.

But, in order to get more people to use transit, transit will have to cover these areas.

Quote:
I am going to bed.
I was already pretty wasted when I wrote the post....


Quote:
Here, This nice old man wrote you a song:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Folks despite everything I've responded to above...nothing in this world has moved me in such a comical way in bursting out in laughter and tears as the thought of listening to jsvh SING about induced demand:
Well, I'm pretty sure jsvh isn't an old man, and I can't watch the video now, but did someone really sing a little folk song about induced demand??? Holy crapballs I cannot wait to watch this later. I might have to hold up my lighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
Again your still thinking about commuters even when your started talking about transit your still talking about just the commuters. And that's the flaw...... What about the neighborhoods they are commuting though and to?

Some one commuting in a car would bring traffic and make an area less pedestrian friendly, that is not the situation with transit. so no they are not the same.
Go back to the original post:

Quote:
And this part of problem bu believes people choose sprawl are entitle to roads
No, we are not "entitled" to roads any more than you are "entitled" to trains, bikes, sidewalks , bridges, crosswalks, trails, or anything else. None of these are rights. Unless you are talking specifically about your own community which you do not commute out of, which even the most uber-urbanists here do not fit that bill, you are commuting through someone else's community. You ride MARTA? You're going through someone else's community. You ride your bike from Little Five Points to Downtown? You're going through someone else's community. The question is not whether one version brings more of one thing or another but whether someone has the "right" to desire something in someone else's community. Of course they do.

You seem to feel that because I might want a nice road to get me from one place or another, that that makes me an entitled jerk wanting to destroy your community. But, if you want to take a travel lane from my community and turn it into a train that doesn't help me in any way, but instead makes it harder to get around, that you're not entitled, but rather some sort of visionary. The cognitive dissonance is strong here.

Quote:
So if a community wanted to make there area more pedestrian friendly it's in their right to do so, The "entitlement" comes in that you believe car commuters can tell another community..... no!............. build us wide roads, make a more car oriented area, add more parking a lots,...... because they say so..... this make no sense.
Okay, jsvatldal...you're making stuff up now, and patently ignoring what I said, again. How is my wanting to keep a road through a community five miles away different than someone wanting to take lanes away and put a train through a community five miles away? Just because you feel the train is always beneficial? So, if someone comes and closes down part of the the major thoroughfare through my area and makes it harder for me to get in an out of my community, so that they can commute through on a train, that's not their entitlement, but their vision?

You are completely bypassing he point. Car drivers are not the only entitled ones here. All of us are.

Quote:
So your statement "what I said was true" is not because transit riders would working the commuted to neighborhoods agenda. While car commuters would be conflicting with the commuted to and through neighborhoods..
That is your opinion and not based at all in any fact whatsoever. If the community does not want to lose their road to transit and it's done anyway to please transit commuters, it is absolutely the same thing. I mean seriously, can you not see this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
That asside...another much more important thing to realize is...the practicality of living has LONG changed... The population of the planet has more than doubled since that period of time... Squeeze all those people who want to live closer to their jobs ITP and see what happens to the cost of living...you think Atlanta's expensive now? You ain't seen nothin yet.
But all the high-density places in the world are very affordable. I mean, we have one example that kind of shows this!!

Quote:
And trust me...you don't want to be like DC or Boston (who literally became so frustrated with traffic they dug their highways underground) when it comes to traffic...both of which have transit systems which far outclass anything we have in the metro.
Right. So we need to start closing roads and taking lanes so that people will move to transit which we will build after closing the roads and lanes.

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Now...unless you have actual facts with backed up data PROVING that living near a job center in the metro is the same cost as commuting to one.. ..please dont try that again... ...ever...
As I've pointed out before...he has a valid argument IF one are willing to live in either a small or old place. If you are willing to give up the house and live in an 800 square foot apartment and keep most of your life squared into what is nearby, then yeah, you can make it cheaper. You absolutely will make sacrifices to live in the middle of town.

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Stop looking at the stuff that happened centuries ago and compare life to what it is TODAY... right here and now...it would be impractical and infeasible to live like we did 100 years ago
You know...there was this business in Memphis that closed a few years ago, and it was the go-to source for high-society gift giving. It was the home of crystal candlesticks and crocheted ducks. Up until they closed, the entire business was run on hand-written index cards. Your account was not in a computer or even in a ledger. It was on a hand-written index card stored in a plastic box on the desk.

Very few places could afford to run in such a way, but a few still think it could. We all talk about the old days where we looked up numbers in the telephone book then found a landline to call, went to the library to find a book to look up a fact, or drove for three days to get to that vacation destination. But how many would give up their cell phone, google, or a plane trip?
 
Old 05-21-2018, 09:38 AM
bu2
 
9,260 posts, read 5,934,125 times
Reputation: 3689
https://onthemap.ces.census.gov/

Here's a cool census tool. It shows for Atlanta that as of 2015, 422,225 worked in the city of Atlanta. 344,462 came from outside the city. Of the people in the city, 77,763 worked in the city limits and 103,647 worked outside the city limits.


Those 344k provide a lot of tax dollars to the city of Atlanta. Anti-car approaches will drive them elsewhere.
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