Atlanta’s relationship with the automobile is reaching a crossroads. (Dallas: public school, rail)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Cannot scrap the gas tax for tolls. If we did, the rest of the state of Georgia would no longer be able to afford roads. And transit won't help that situation.

We not only can scrap the gas tax, we will have to. It is not sustainable in the long run as we switch to alternative fuel vehicles anyways.

But as I have been saying, roads / highways have been overbuilt and are not able to fund themselves and that level of subsidies cannot continue.

The solution is not for the urban areas to keep subsidizing the over-built suburban and rural road networks, but downsize the overbuilt road networks.

This is something that is becoming broadly realized. The massive subsidies for the sprawling road network is not sustainable.

Iowa DOT Chief: The system is going to shrink

The Un-paving of American Roads

Most rural small towns were historically walk-able nodes centered around a rail station. We need to (and will have to) get back to more that model for rural small towns.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by jsvh

We not only can scrap the gas tax, we will have to. It is not sustainable in the long run as we switch to alternative fuel vehicles anyways.

But as I have been saying, roads / highways have been overbuilt and are not able to fund themselves and that level of subsidies cannot continue.

The solution is not for the urban areas to keep subsidizing the over-built suburban and rural road networks, but downsize the overbuilt road networks.

This is something that is becoming broadly realized. The massive subsidies for the sprawling road network is not sustainable.

Iowa DOT Chief: The system is going to shrink

The Un-paving of American Roads

Most rural small towns were historically walk-able nodes centered around a rail station. We need to (and will have to) get back to more that model for rural small towns.

What about tolling all roads and giving everybody something like a Peach Pass. Autos, buses, trucks and cyclists only pay for the roads they use.

Likewise with transit. Take away all subsidies and let riders pay the actual cost.

Probably wouldn't work but just throwing it out there.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by arjay57

What about tolling all roads and giving everybody something like a Peach Pass. Autos, buses, trucks and cyclists only pay for the roads they use.

Likewise with transit. Take away all subsidies and let riders pay the actual cost.

Probably wouldn't work but just throwing it out there.

Makes sense to me. That is usually how toll roads work. Heavy uses like buses & trunks are also tolled more since they are putting more wear on the road.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Makes sense to me.

If people had to pay $17.50 for a single MARTA ticket, no one would ride, and the system would fail in a week. That is not a reasonable proposal.

If I had to pay 10% more to drive, it would just be an annoyance. Currently between state and federal taxes, we pay around 45¢ per gallon. A gallon gets me about 21 miles in city driving, 25 highway...average 23. With 15,000 miles a year, that's about 652 gallons of fuel, or $293 in taxes (I pay twice that to MARTA in taxes...). In Georgia, fuel taxes cover 90% of the highways and major roads. So, to cover that last 10%, I'd need to pay around $325. Let's jack it up a bit to cover extra projects and maintenance. Let's say $365 per year. So...great! Find some way to toll me $1 per day, remove all gas taxes, and we're in business. You've increased my fees nearly 25%, GDOT is more funded, yet I'd still be paying more to MARTA.

[jsvh]

If MARTA really has to charge $17.50 for a single ticket for me to go from downtown to midtown we should let it fail.

Private transit companies can do it better than that.

Regardless, MARTA's failures are not an excuse to keep bailing out the overbuilt road network.

Two unsustainable and failing subsidies do not make a right.

(Of course the real costs of MARTA are a much more reasonable $3-something)

I think $1-a-day toll might be a little optimistic, but if your commute is comparable to the length of GA400 between I-85 and I-285 then that is certainly possible (since that toll was $0.50). And if you commute off-peak hours you could be saving even more if we do congestion pricing. Those adjustable toll lanes on I-85 are often less than ten cents when there is not traffic.

But glad you agree on tolls. Like I said before, we really agree on a lot when you get down to it.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

If MARTA really has to charge $17.50 for a single ticket for me to go from downtown to midtown we should let it fail.

(Of course the real costs of MARTA are a much more reasonable $3-something)

According to the 2018 Budget Book, MARTA's total expenditures were $956 million. Passenger revenue brought in $135 million. Total expenditures were more than 7 times passenger fare revenue. That puts passenger cost at $17.70. Now, let's go ahead and add all other non-subsidy/tax revenue in. That's an additional $156 million in revenue. So, that gets us down to $800 million dollars of operating costs minus non-subsidy, non-passenger revenue, with passengers kicking in $135 million. So, that's a multiple of 5.93. So, without subsidies, a MARTA ticket should actually cost around $14.83.

I have no clue how they are calculating the "true cost" at $3.53. With a rail cost of $3.53 and a bus cost of $4.60, they're averaging about $4.06. For a ride to cost $4.06 out of $956 million, they would need around 235.5 million boardings.

But glad you agree on tolls. Like I said before, we really agree on a lot when you get down to it.

We may agree on some very broad ideas, but as far as how things are and how to accomplish things, you're so far out in left field, you're hanging out in the Galleria. That's essentially like saying "Hey, we both agree that we need to give the government a little kick in the pants, so we should elect an inexperienced, vastly unintelligent, emotionless con artist to be President!"

If we're talking a $1 a day toll so that you don't feel like a victim, then sure...

[Otakumaster]

Originally Posted by jsvh

You might think you are getting two bills for toll roads, but you still aren't paying the full tab.

Yet, as we’ve been telling you this whole time; neither are you or any other transit rider.

As Sam pointed out the full tab for Marta would be $14-$17 one way which is much higher than the current $2.50.

Drivers are subsidizing that too.

We can have an honest discussion when you admit that drivers not only pay more of the percent for the cost of roads than transit riders do for transit AND that drivers pay for transit AND roads.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Otakumaster

Yet, as we’ve been telling you this whole time; neither are you or any other transit rider.

As Sam pointed out the full tab for Marta would be $14-$17 one way which is much higher than the current $2.50.

Drivers are subsidizing that too.

We can have an honest discussion when you admit that drivers not only pay more of the percent for the cost of roads than transit riders do for transit AND that drivers pay for transit AND roads.

Let us not forget that at least half of transit riders in the ATL (and probably a lot more) rely on the roads as well. In addition to all the folks using buses, you've got thousands of people driving to MARTA stations and no telling how many MARTA employees driving to work.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Let us not forget that at least half of transit riders in the ATL (and probably a lot more) rely on the roads as well. In addition to all the folks using buses, you've got thousands of people driving to MARTA stations and no telling how many MARTA employees driving to work.

True. I would say that the number of people who commute using only MARTA is maybe a couple of percent at most. And 97% of MARTA's route mileage is on those roads. That, right there, is your subsidy and the reason roads should get subsidies as well.

[jsvh]

Sam clearly thinks he knows MARTA's books better than MARTA. He does not.

Whine all you want about MARTA subsidies and theorizing how ridiculously high they might be. I am not asking for MARTA to get them. And they are not a valid excuse for road's massive subsidies and policy favoritism.

You fear that policy favoritism & subsidies going away because you know they are required to support the car dependent culture you are pedaling.

And yes, MARTA bus ridership costs are higher than rail. MARTA needs to cut those low-frequency, low ridership, winding bus routes first.

These $15 MARTA fare theories are getting increasingly ridiculous. Like I said above, if MARTA really does have to charge that then it deserves to fail. If people have real tolls they have to pay when weighing their commute options there will be a plethora of private transportation options that will pop up regardless of MARTA subsidies.